EU4 - Development Diary - 22th of September

EU4 - Development Diary - 22th of September

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Centuria

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Note that I was talking - specifically - about the idea of adding development to match 1444 levels.

On the idea of developing the South American nation: I'd be for it, but I have little power to do it myself, because I lack the awareness and personal interest to do it as a passion project in my free time, and that's all the ability I have to affect what gets developed. I hope Paradox does it, or another person on staff takes it on as a passion project, but yeah.
As i said in the previous post, 1444 levels as of right now are a huge problem because they are extremely biased towards North America and the eastern seaboard. which also doesnt have any of the nasty, nasty maluses and large, unwieldy provinces like South America does. I cannot stress enough how much in terms of gameplay the low dev and tropical malus affect South America negatively.

And as mentioned in my first post in the thread, and this is more for other readers than Evie, dont hold your breath. Paradox sure has come a long way in its portrayal of North America, Asia and Africa (even if the latter still has the term ''fetishism'' being used in EU4... but that's a story for another time and thread) but South America remains in the shadow, and will remain for the time being since fundamentally it's just never a focus, or something remotely important, in any expansion, content pack, patch and so forth, getting just some scraps off the table. To be quite honest, i dont expect anything at all before EU5. And i know that isnt that near at all.

I mean, at that point if we're not using a recognizable English name, we might as well go for the original article. Tzintzuntzan is really growing on me.

Besides which, if we can have Galicia-Volhynia (and, as of this overhaul, Attigneenongnahac*), I'm sure the players can handle Tzintzuntzan.

*Fun fact: I've had to spell that one so often in the past week or so working on the overhaul that I can actually write it from memory at this point.
Yeah, that was the endonym i was referring to. Wasnt really confident in typing it correctly, but its most certainly better than Tarascan, and more accurate too, since it more properly reflects that the state was a political entity centered around that city. There are other tags where this is an issue ( Tapuia means ''Enemy'', Sioux means ''Snake'', Cheyenne is a Lakota exonym for two tribes that didnt merge until the 1820s, and so on and so forth ) but i feel like this is a especially easy to deal with case since it has both an endyonym for the culture and one for the state, but also a slightly less bad exonym in Michoacán.
 
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DaJay42

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Will Federations be moddable?

I think there are quite a few people who would love the ability to create something like the Swiss Confederacy with perhaps a leadership stuff like you did for the Natives.
Just to poke this again. This federation system looks like it has the potential to be very interesting, and if the "unify the tags" stuff discussed here goes through, even more so.

I think it would be worth it considering to add the same or a similar system for other places in the world. There are quite a few (con)federations in the old world that could use some more love, a certain alpine alliance included. This is of course slightly out of scope for this particular overhaul, but I'd suggest keeping the possibility in mind going forward.
 
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Can't wait to mess around with these new native features with custom nation designer in other parts of the world. :D

ok so when are you going to let us randomize the old world when playing as an american nation
That sounds like a fun feature to play around with. Like a reversed RNW.
 
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Evie HJ

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Ah ha! Did something just slip there? :p
Haha. Sorry to disappoint, but this was a reference to past work, not future. It's fairly public knowledge that I worked on West Africa for the Art of War overhaul.
 
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Evie HJ

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British Columbia is extremely mountainous and it's on a latitude comparable to Moscow.
I mean, that's technically true, but it's also highly misleading. The *northern* parts of BC (Fort St John or so) are on a similar latitude to Moscow (55/56 degree). Fort St John is also the first European settlement within British Columbia (in timeline, at that), well before electric heating or any of those comforts (so it,s not exactly uninhabitable), and the province corresponding to Fort St John is also the *northernmost* in-game province for British Columbia (Alberta goes a little further north, simply because the Peace river country was of great importance in Hudson Bay Company explorations and operations.

Pretty much every province in British Columbia on the map is thus actually well south of Moscow. And while the landscape is rugged, a lot of the interior is rugged plateaus of valleys hills rather than out and out impassable mountains.

The existing wasteland is underselling it, in my opinion. It's definitely missing the Coast Mountains in the southwest, which to my knowledge are essentially impassible.
It wouldn't change much, actually. Mountain wastelands are narrow strips a few pixels wide representing only the impassable ridgeline itself. It wouldn't actually affect the existing province count (the coastal provinces to the west represent the Native-inhabited bays and islands along the coast; Tsiloqtin to the east represent the also-inhabited Chilcottin plateau). The Coast Range are the area in-between, not any of those provinces.

Plus, generally speaking, Mountain wastelands would only be added if two conditions are met:
1. There are two provinces that should have absolutely no connection to each other (no transportation at all between them). If there is any part of the border between the two province that we think should be traversable (mountain pass, desert path, etc), then we just represent the two provinces as adjacent, and we don't put any mountain wasteland between them.
AND
2. There isn't an already-existing wasteland province of the map that the new province can be part of. Otherwise, we just extend that existing wasteland a bit rather than adding a new one under a different name.

Under these rules, we wouldn't actually add the Coastal range: we'd just extend the existing BC wasteland a little further south to come between Tsiloqtin and the sea. It wouldn't have much impact on overall percentage.

Comparing that to how things have panned out historically, the current map feels slightly arbitrary. And while we're on the subject, it really doesn't help that outside of San Francisco, the provinces are all basically at the same level of development, even when that doesn't make a lot of sense.
How things panned out historically is largely outside the scope of this game, and largely a factor of nineteenth century social and political circumstances - in game terms, the mid 19th century united states had a lot more monarch points and willingness to spend it on the Pacific Northwest than the British Crown.

In 1444, or even 1821 (the period we're interested in), the development differences would be slight if existent at all. Terrain type (which affects development costs) may need to be revised, but that's about the extent of any changes that might need to be made with regard to development.
 
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artesox

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next aztec and inca ?
I would really enjoy any form of content for them to cover anything past your initial survival. It seems to be the trend going on with certain tags (burgundy, majapahit) in the latest updates.
 
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Inawordyes

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The one nice thing about PDX Tinto taking point on future EU4 content is that, being that it’s based in Spain (where people speak Spanish, and is neighbor to Portugal where people speak Portuguese), as it’s bring set up and developers are hired, those locally-hired devs will speak Spanish (and potentially Portuguese), meaning that the chances that South America (where people speak Spanish, and includes Brazil where people speak Portuguese) gets its much-needed overhaul sooner rather than later increase dramatically.

It’s an area that’s been in need of much love for awhile, but considering 99% of the continent has either Spanish or Portuguese as their country’s official language, it does put a barrier up to a vast amount of historical records for the devs who are not fluent in either. It actually would not surprise me if it’s the next place to receive a numbered patch dedicated to it, in the same way that this is the SEA [and friends] update, now that the people directly working on EU4 will be able to read, understand, and apply those historical records to the game, and if said theoretical update extended to include all of SA, the Caribbean, another pass at Central America, and even Southwest US which was historically Spanish- or Mexico-controlled for a lot of the time, that would be triply-swell

But for now, I’m happy with the changes we’re getting in North America, and hopefully I’ll be able to say the same about South America soon too!
 
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Evie HJ

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The one nice thing about PDX Tinto taking point on future EU4 content is that, being that it’s based in Spain (where people speak Spanish, and is neighbor to Portugal where people speak Portuguese), as it’s bring set up and developers are hired, those locally-hired devs will speak Spanish (and potentially Portuguese), meaning that the chances that South America (where people speak Spanish, and includes Brazil where people speak Portuguese) gets its much-needed overhaul sooner rather than later increase dramatically.

It’s an area that’s been in need of much love for awhile, but considering 99% of the continent has either Spanish or Portuguese as their country’s official language, it does put a barrier up to a vast amount of historical records for the devs who are not fluent in either. It actually would not surprise me if it’s the next place to receive a numbered patch dedicated to it, in the same way that this is the SEA [and friends] update, now that the people directly working on EU4 will be able to read, understand, and apply those historical records to the game, and if said theoretical update extended to include all of SA, the Caribbean, another pass at Central America, and even Southwest US which was historically Spanish- or Mexico-controlled for a lot of the time, that would be triply-swell

But for now, I’m happy with the changes we’re getting in North America, and hopefully I’ll be able to say the same about South America soon too!
I'm not saying another update to Central America and the US southwest would be bad (far from), but as far as maps and countries go, I'd consider them to be largely on a level with where Eastern North America is now - this overhaul is North America catching up to what Central got in Golden Century, since they were both at Art of War level before then. South America on the other hand is not in good shape.

Of course, at some point, adjustments may need to be made to use new game mechanisms, but that's true of the whole world.
 
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Sete

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The one nice thing about PDX Tinto taking point on future EU4 content is that, being that it’s based in Spain (where people speak Spanish, and is neighbor to Portugal where people speak Portuguese), as it’s bring set up and developers are hired, those locally-hired devs will speak Spanish (and potentially Portuguese), meaning that the chances that South America (where people speak Spanish, and includes Brazil where people speak Portuguese) gets its much-needed overhaul sooner rather than later increase dramatically.

It’s an area that’s been in need of much love for awhile, but considering 99% of the continent has either Spanish or Portuguese as their country’s official language, it does put a barrier up to a vast amount of historical records for the devs who are not fluent in either. It actually would not surprise me if it’s the next place to receive a numbered patch dedicated to it, in the same way that this is the SEA [and friends] update, now that the people directly working on EU4 will be able to read, understand, and apply those historical records to the game, and if said theoretical update extended to include all of SA, the Caribbean, another pass at Central America, and even Southwest US which was historically Spanish- or Mexico-controlled for a lot of the time, that would be triply-swell

But for now, I’m happy with the changes we’re getting in North America, and hopefully I’ll be able to say the same about South America soon too!
Last 20 years saw an increase in publications about Iberian colonialism in English.
That's not an excuse I would give to the devs for making poor to no research.

What greases the wheels is market, and on that North America has a big share of it with all their Northern European ancestry. Hence the focus.

The difference between the UK expansion and the Iberian expansion is telling.
 
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Mister X

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If South America will be redone, then the Amazon is a big place to start - we have proof now that there were truly gargantuan cities along the Amazon and that the area was quite developed - but the diseases wiped all of them out quickly and little traces remain as they mostly used wood
 
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If South America will be redone, then the Amazon is a big place to start - we have proof now that there were truly gargantuan cities along the Amazon and that the area was quite developed - but the diseases wiped all of them out quickly and little traces remain as they mostly used wood
That's true. But while Archaeology can guide where new things are added, it's a very poor source of information on what to add itself. Speaking for a moment of my experience with the North American gargantuan ruined cities of the Mississippi (and with attempts to add them in 1399, way back when I was an EU3 modder...)

Archaeological ruins are extremely hard to add without some sort of record (written OR oral) of their existence to give us a basic idea of what the notable political entities were. That's what makes the Southern Mississippian much easier to add, for example: we have both written (De Soto and Prado's accounts, predating the main devastation from diseases) and oral history (the Creeks are the direct descendants of the southern Mississippian, and the Cherokee their long time neighbor, and they kept the memory of the older cities alive in their traditions). They also kept names alive for the older moundbuilders cities near them (or sometime even, the cities in which they lived - The Cherokee weren'T moundbuilders, but they borrowed former moundbuilders cities aplenty).

We don't have anything comparable for the Middle Mississippians. Only a handful of the sites even have native names at all (and none of them are the names the inhabitants of the city used). The rest have names like "BBB Motors" or "Kincaid Site" based on whatever colonial European features existed near the ruins when they were found - because we have no idea whatsoever what the Indigenous people may have called those sites. The oral histories we know of in the region give us almost nothing to go on. We have some outlines of their culture thanks for archaeology, but almost no indication of their political situation.

Now, I'm not especially versed in the history of the Amazonian cities (I know about the topic, but I don't know what the latest research say about them). But I know their North American cousins are essentially unrepresentable, and, unless we have a lot more oral history from the neighboring Amazonian people than I was given to understand, representing them in game as anything more than, say, a province modifier would be extremely difficult.
 
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Last 20 years saw an increase in publications about Iberian colonialism in English.
That's not an excuse I would give to the devs for making poor to no research.

What greases the wheels is market, and on that North America has a big share of it with all their Northern European ancestry. Hence the focus.

The difference between the UK expansion and the Iberian expansion is telling.
Of course, and my intention wasn’t to make excuses for the Devs. But on that note, another nice thing about the development studio now being one based in Spain is that the people working on the game will in theory care about a lot more about Iberia and the places that Spain and Portugal affected historically, such as South America. It doesn’t excuse the prior devs for neglecting it up to now, but with a fresh set of eyes from a different area - one that has a connection to South America that Sweden does not - it is a lot more likely that Brazil, and Argentina, and Columbia, become the passion projects of these devs and receive the rich content that those regions deserve, as well as obviously Iberia too possibly getting another pass from the people who actually live there.

Marker does dictates, but people will always gravitate towards working on what they’re familiar with to when given the option, so now you have people who will be more familiar with these under-represented areas, so hopefully they don’t stay under-represented for long!
 
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Lord_Baltimore

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The one nice thing about PDX Tinto taking point on future EU4 content is that, being that it’s based in Spain (where people speak Spanish, and is neighbor to Portugal where people speak Portuguese), as it’s bring set up and developers are hired, those locally-hired devs will speak Spanish (and potentially Portuguese), meaning that the chances that South America (where people speak Spanish, and includes Brazil where people speak Portuguese) gets its much-needed overhaul sooner rather than later increase dramatically.

It’s an area that’s been in need of much love for awhile, but considering 99% of the continent has either Spanish or Portuguese as their country’s official language, it does put a barrier up to a vast amount of historical records for the devs who are not fluent in either. It actually would not surprise me if it’s the next place to receive a numbered patch dedicated to it, in the same way that this is the SEA [and friends] update, now that the people directly working on EU4 will be able to read, understand, and apply those historical records to the game, and if said theoretical update extended to include all of SA, the Caribbean, another pass at Central America, and even Southwest US which was historically Spanish- or Mexico-controlled for a lot of the time, that would be triply-swell

But for now, I’m happy with the changes we’re getting in North America, and hopefully I’ll be able to say the same about South America soon too!
There have been some great threads on South America in the suggestions forum; here, here and here for example. Being a dumb American, I'm no expert on this stuff but from what I have looked into a lot of the research is pretty good (or at least good enough for EUIV purposes). You don't need any special connection to the Latin world, just for someone at Paradox to follow up on what others have done.
 
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BuchiTaton

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If South America will be redone, then the Amazon is a big place to start - we have proof now that there were truly gargantuan cities along the Amazon and that the area was quite developed - but the diseases wiped all of them out quickly and little traces remain as they mostly used wood
Agree.

What I wonder the most is why we can do the 1804-1086 Pacific North West Lewis and Clark expdition route, but can not the 1541-1542 Amazon Francisco de Orellana expedition?

Also, we must remember that Portuguese were going all up the Amazon river to attack the spanish missions on the Upper Amazon.

EU4 alredy have huge playable parts of Inner Africa, so an Amazon route should be complety justifiable for both native and colonial interaction. All we need is some of the better know Amazonian nations like the Omaguas (Cambeba).
 
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Centuria

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I really dont think a studio in Spain will change much at all really.

Regarding amazonian cities, its important to note that much like many missisipian cities, we still know very little about the societies places like Kuhikugo, and even less about some of the other more recently discovered cities and sites. We'd be walking into some fairly uncertain academic territory, and that kind of thin ice can quickly cave in below you. Bottom line is, knowing the cities and cultures existed doesnt necessairly mean we know the four main ''components'' of a tag all that well (religion, culture, flag, ideas). But as mentioned, specific tags are of lesser importance than the vast mechanical problems present in South America.
 
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Evie HJ

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I mean, even knowing a name of native origin (Kuhikugu) put it ahead of just about any Middle Mississippian City except Cahokia, and unlike Cahokia (named for a tribe who lived there later, who may or may not be related to the people of the city), Kuhikugu appears to be named in a language that seems likely to be the language of the descendants of the people of the city...and I'd still go for Cahokia anyway if it was timeline-appropriate (largely abandoned by 1450).

Honestly, on that strength, if I were doing South America (which, again, I won't), I'd probably throw Kuhikugu in. Religion would have to be simplified to the South-American catchall, Culture would likely represent the people currently believed to be descendants of the inhabitants, flag can be winged from pottery, and archaeology can be surprisingly useful in figuring out ideas (or push come to shove, generic ideas still exist if nothing else can be found).

Name is really the lynchpin. If you have a reasonably appropriate name and you have arcaheological remnants, you can wing the rest. It may not be very detailed, but it will be there.
 
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Centuria

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Honestly, on that strength, if I were doing South America (which, again, I won't), I'd probably throw Kuhikugu in. Religion would have to be simplified to the South-American catchall, Culture would likely represent the people currently believed to be descendants of the inhabitants, flag can be winged from pottery, and archaeology can be surprisingly useful in figuring out ideas (or push come to shove, generic ideas still exist if nothing else can be found).
I for one long for the days of when a South American religion exists, and we leave the dark days of the Cult of the Great Boar behind us :). But i think the real uncertainty lies on more recent sites, as opposed to Kuhikugu, such as the cities more ''deep'' into the ''wasteland'' of the current map uncovered with orbital imagery.
 
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Yeah. Those, like many of the Mississippian sites, might just not be doable. I don't foresee much chance, for example, of a mosaic of local cities in the jungle able to interact with one another.
 
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