EU4 - Development Diary - 1st of September 2020

EU4 - Development Diary - 1st of September 2020

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+1 Abs is even worse because you can raise absolutism easily just by using the Age bonus or dumping military points. And once you hit max Absolutism,
More like absolutism is garbage now when you can get 30 estates privileges instead
 
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Ottomans has one of the weakest military ideasets of any major nation in Europe. They get 15% cavalry combat ability where Siam gets 15% and +1 fire and even that is currently argued as useless, Ottomans get 10% trade efficiency while Siam gets 15%, Ottomans get 5% discipline while Siam gets 5% discipline and 10% morale. I would actually consider Siamese ideas better than Ottomans overall, CCR is very powerful but you can circumvent that with Siam with the extra diplomatic reputation and annexation cost reduction.

Only real advantage Ottomans have why people think their military ideaset is good is because their units have absurd high pips early on. If one day EU devs remove the unit type system and I hope they will then it will become obvious how weak Ottoman military ideas are.
You seem to have forgotten about the +20% manpower recovery speed and the +33% land force limit that the Ottomans get in your analysis of military ideas.

Manpower and manpower recovery ideas are top military ideas. Most battles in EU4 all you need is overwhelming numbers and those ideas help do that. Being able to war constantly and long term is also important and these ideas help with that.
 
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You seem to have forgotten about the +20% manpower recovery speed and the +33% land force limit that the Ottomans get in your analysis of military ideas.

Manpower and manpower recovery ideas are top military ideas. Most battles in EU4 all you need is overwhelming numbers and those ideas help do that. Being able to war constantly and long term is also important and these ideas help with that.
I didn't mention those, because Siam gets 30% manpower, which is better than 20% manpower recovery. 33% land force limit is powerful but land force is also easiest military statistics to increase, moreover with current system of government capacity vassals are also even more important for land force limit.

Regardless, I was responding to your claim that Ottomans should be nerfed because of their position and their status as a starting tag. They already are quite nerfed, mostly being carried by their unit pips and the age ability.
 
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Uh mate... you missed out the 33% force limit, christ. Put 130 oto infantry vs 100 siam infantry and see how far that 10 morale gets you. Jesus.

Also 30% manpower is not better than 20% recovery. what crack are you smoking? I will take 170% manpower and +40% recovery over 200% manpower and 20% recovery. Just do the math.


finaly otos do not get carried by their age ability and unit pips.... those things help... but are far from what carries them

otos gets carried by great starting dev, a great economy really really easy expansion, extra force limit and constantly good rulers. Unit pips and age ability lol.
 
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Not to be a dunce, but people keep talking about NIs Tier lists, but Google only shows me idea groups rankings.
Where is this fabled list?
 
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Not to be a dunce, but people keep talking about NIs Tier lists, but Google only shows me idea groups rankings.
Where is this fabled list?
It shifts over time as the meta does. It's quite hard to exactly quantify. You also have the problem of how you measure it.

For example. Are you rating, Overall strength, regardless of starting location. Strength factoring in starting location, strength factoring in development, pure military strength or factoring quantity or economic strength (which is pseudo quantity since you can go over force limit)

how about growth? if your first war isn't till 1600 is very different from waring all game Since everyone has a different idea on this is make comming up with a teir list very hard.

That said. If we look at competitive mp we have a set of conditions that are fairly cosntant and nations do a set of things that are optimal, and there are certain ideas that are a lot more noticeable than others. Discipline always noticible, morale noticible sometimes, dev cost very noticible etc.

The mp teir (ideas rather than nations)list is something like this
A-teir - Russia, Spain, Prussia, Sweden(with reforms of gustav), Poland (some minors Mewar Nepal Shimazu oda butua etc) rum just about cuts it
Bteir - Swiss, Ireland, siam, dithmarchen, hanover, otos, adulusia, timurids, Persia, france
C- Gb, austria, bohemia, Italy, qing


Meme nations: naval meme nations, trade nations, useful for their allies could never win a real war by themselves
Portugal genoa Venice Netherlands, naval minors etc.

Realistically though the best nations in the game to play are Russia France otoluks india spain and great Ireland. With relevant other nations if played well being Italy, polish Austria, qing or japachina. and no Prussia doesn't get a mention because Poland doesn't let Prussia exist.
 
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Bali begins as a tributary state of Majapahit, and its first mission requires ending that relationship while not having a truce with Majapahit. Completing this mission rewards you with a free colony on the neighboring island of Lombok. Completing this colony allows you to complete the Expand Eastwards mission, which then rewards an additional colony on Sumbawa and +25 Global Settler Increase for the rest of the game.
I think Lombok Island should be a playable kingdom. The kingdom of Bali should be given a mission to conquer the island.
The kingdom of Bali had difficulties conquering the island of Lombok which should be reflected in the game.

That’s all for today! This concludes the 8-part series of development diaries on content for South-East Asia. There are a few things I've done that haven't been featured in dev diaries and there's a possibility of more content for the region being added before release, so don't take these dev diaries as a completely exhaustive list of all SEA content. This content update for South-East Asis is something I’ve wanted to work on for a few years now and I’m very happy that I was able to see my vision realized before the end of my time on the project. I hope you enjoyed reading. Thank you and goodbye!
@neondt , please, consider adding at least a few playable nations in the Nusa Tenggara region.
Region looks completely left out of the update, which is very sad given the rich history of the region.


 
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I think Lombok Island should be a playable kingdom. The kingdom of Bali should be given a mission to conquer the island.
The kingdom of Bali had difficulties conquering the island of Lombok which should be reflected in the game.



@neondt , please, consider adding at least a few playable nations in the Nusa Tenggara region.
Region looks completely left out of the update, which is very sad given the rich history of the region.



Love it. My contenders would be Hindu nation of Bima, Lombok, or Pagan Kingdom of Amanatun.
I actually had a chance to visit Lombok and talked to local Sasak tribe. They mentioned Makassar's influence which I think should be included in the game as well. Earlier history was vague, but I think they should be start either as Majapahit's tributary or part of Bali's kingdom.
 
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i wonder if it would not be better to create a Tai culture group ?
 
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It shifts over time as the meta does. It's quite hard to exactly quantify. You also have the problem of how you measure it.

For example. Are you rating, Overall strength, regardless of starting location. Strength factoring in starting location, strength factoring in development, pure military strength or factoring quantity or economic strength (which is pseudo quantity since you can go over force limit)

how about growth? if your first war isn't till 1600 is very different from waring all game Since everyone has a different idea on this is make comming up with a teir list very hard.

That said. If we look at competitive mp we have a set of conditions that are fairly cosntant and nations do a set of things that are optimal, and there are certain ideas that are a lot more noticeable than others. Discipline always noticible, morale noticible sometimes, dev cost very noticible etc.

The mp teir (ideas rather than nations)list is something like this
A-teir - Russia, Spain, Prussia, Sweden(with reforms of gustav), Poland (some minors Mewar Nepal Shimazu oda butua etc) rum just about cuts it
Bteir - Swiss, Ireland, siam, dithmarchen, hanover, otos, adulusia, timurids, Persia, france
C- Gb, austria, bohemia, Italy, qing


Meme nations: naval meme nations, trade nations, useful for their allies could never win a real war by themselves
Portugal genoa Venice Netherlands, naval minors etc.

Realistically though the best nations in the game to play are Russia France otoluks india spain and great Ireland. With relevant other nations if played well being Italy, polish Austria, qing or japachina. and no Prussia doesn't get a mention because Poland doesn't let Prussia exist.
GB being C tier, lmao. Also you don't have an S-tier.

Generally the best national ideas are military based - either on land or sea - and also maybe contain top tier eco ideas like Goods Produced and Development Cost Reduction, the two strongest economic bonuses in game. Trade-based national ideas are good at making money and are thus typically viable, since they can supply money to their more military-focused allies.

Here are some examples:
SS-tier (God): Prussian (undisputed Land king), GB (undisputed Open Sea King and has disgusting 20% Goods modifier)
S-tier (Top Tier): Spanish, French, Swedish w/ reforms, Polish, Russian, Danish (arguably 2nd best navy), Irish, Hindustani, Oda & Madyas (Land and Naval leader pips)
A-tier (Good): Bharat, Japanese, Khmer
B-tier (Respectable): Dai Viet, Ottoman, Austrian, Dutch, Italian (just stay Tuscan)
C-tier (Niche/Lacking): Qing (only 15% Morale and 15% Advisor, so somewhat lacking on both fronts), Portuguese (just form Spain)
D-tier (Viable): Byzantium, Mamluk (both have 5% disc and some okay eco mods, like advisor cost/trade eff)
F-tier (Unviable): Korean (bad land, bad navy, bad income)
 
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GB being C tier, lmao. Also you don't have an S-tier.

Generally the best national ideas are military based - either on land or sea - and also maybe contain top tier eco ideas like Goods Produced and Development Cost Reduction, the two strongest economic bonuses in game. Trade-based national ideas are good at making money and are thus typically viable, since they can supply money to their more military-focused allies.

Here are some examples:
SS-tier (God): Prussian (undisputed Land king), GB (undisputed Open Sea King and has disgusting 20% Goods modifier)
S-tier (Top Tier): Spanish, French, Swedish w/ reforms, Polish, Russian, Danish (arguably 2nd best navy), Irish, Hindustani, Oda & Madyas (Land and Naval leader pips)
A-tier (Good): Bharat, Japanese, Khmer
B-tier (Respectable): Dai Viet, Ottoman, Austrian, Dutch, Italian (just stay Tuscan)
C-tier (Niche/Lacking): Qing (only 15% Morale and 15% Advisor, so somewhat lacking on both fronts), Portuguese (just form Spain)
D-tier (Viable): Byzantium, Mamluk (both have 5% disc and some okay eco mods, like advisor cost/trade eff)
F-tier (Unviable): Korean (bad land, bad navy, bad income)

whatever on tiers, define it how you like. *shrug*

Dude, there's a reason good players form Ireland as England.
Gbs strength comes from being an island in the English Chanel, not their ideas. The ideas help secure that. But basically, you could give gb norways ideas and it would do the same thing. If you play that kind of nation all you do is fund people, and you cant protect your non-island holdings, and also the sea is so fucking big it still doesn't necessarily stop you getting sea lioned. Meanwhile, Irish ideas give you the same effective discipline as Poland until about tech 22 iirc. Plus if anyone ever does naval dec on you you can always just hit the rule Britania mission for 20% + other bonuses morale for 40 years.

Prussia's ideas are great and all on paper, but their power comes from their government form. Which also comes with the downside of -50% gov capacity. Which is basically going to mean your advisors are like 100% or more expensive. On a nation like prussia that naturally doesnt have a good income you're going to find it hard to run level 3 advisors let alone level 5.
I rather have Russian ideas over Prussian ideas. Spains +1 artillery fire is insanely good. 1600 Spain can 1v1 prussia even with equal troops, just on the quality of its cannons.
Sweedish ideas are basically Prussian without the morale, right? but then the reform gives more morale and regiment cost and the extra policy is essentially an extra 10 morale, they have extra manpower recovery, can go orthodox instead of protestant. And positionally have a far better economy. Prussia's got so much going against it sure the mil ideas are still highest tier, but I still rather be playing orthodox Sweeden over protestant Prussia. But strictly ideas wise its only 5% morale ahead of Sweden

But its not A FULL TEIR above Sweeden let alone Russia and everything else. That's mad.


People really hype up Prussia, its got the best quality. but quality really isn't everything. There's a reason otos wins all those tournament brackets 33% fl.
Now think about what Russia does with eastern tech +100% manpower steppe states 50% more force limit. Not to mention decent mill quality too.
 
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whatever on tiers, define it how you like. *shrug*

Dude, there's a reason good players form Ireland as England.
Gbs strength comes from being an island in the English Chanel, not their ideas. The ideas help secure that. But basically, you could give gb norways ideas and it would do the same thing. If you play that kind of nation all you do is fund people, and you cant protect your non-island holdings, and also the sea is so fucking big it still doesn't necessarily stop you getting sea lioned. Meanwhile, Irish ideas give you the same effective discipline as Poland until about tech 22 iirc. Plus if anyone ever does naval dec on you you can always just hit the rule Britania mission for 20% + other bonuses morale for 40 years.

Prussia's ideas are great and all on paper, but their power comes from their government form. Which also comes with the downside of -50% gov capacity. Which is basically going to mean your advisors are like 100% or more expensive. On a nation like prussia that naturally doesnt have a good income you're going to find it hard to run level 3 advisors let alone level 5.
I rather have Russian ideas over Prussian ideas. Spains +1 artillery fire is insanely good. 1600 Spain can 1v1 prussia even with equal troops, just on the quality of its cannons.
Sweedish ideas are basically Prussian without the morale, right? but then the reform gives more morale and regiment cost and the extra policy is essentially an extra 10 morale, they have extra manpower recovery, can go orthodox instead of protestant. And positionally have a far better economy. Prussia's got so much going against it sure the mil ideas are still highest tier, but I still rather be playing orthodox Sweeden over protestant Prussia. But strictly ideas wise its only 5% morale ahead of Sweden

But its not A FULL TEIR above Sweeden let alone Russia and everything else. That's mad.


People really hype up Prussia, its got the best quality. but quality really isn't everything. There's a reason otos wins all those tournament brackets 33% fl.
Now think about what Russia does with eastern tech +100% manpower steppe states 50% more force limit. Not to mention decent mill quality too.
It's called "Prussian" (ideas), not Prussia. Strictly looking at NIs, Prussian is absurd (although Prussia, the nation, is still obsenely broken because who cares about GC with Courthouse spam and Prussia can also flip to Orthodox)

Ottomans commonly win games because they have strong steamrolling potential if Otto checks are bad and games commonly ban any form of coalitioning. Ottoman ideas are not what causes them to win.
 

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i was talking about testing armies. This guy did a battle series tournament bracket on yt. Otos beats most things almost entirely on the power of +fl, lategame russia starts winning. Fl is an insanely strong mod. But one thing it didnt factor is that better economy lets you go over FL. Hard to test everything I guess.

In general, i agree with most of the things you've said on this thread, but there's just a few minor quibbles.

One of which is the gb prussia favouritism, which i completely understand. Ive seen those nations run away with games. But I think people fail to understand the real reason WHY those nations run away with the game. its its not strictly purely based on their ideas. Though they HELP! But also positioning and government reforms. And that if you were to make a custom nation of equal dev, Russian ideas are probably the best thing you could take,

And I think any two good competent mp players will have disagreements on a few minor things. For example, I tend to rate regiment cost higher than a lot of people because im happy to build over FL and i love stacking - cost modifiers. Some people value goods produced or manpower very highly, some value prestige and army tradition more highly than others (i for example rate AT higher lategame than early since late i just want to sit and dev and maintain at without waring. Etc etc.)

All that influences teir lists. But fundamentally most of the things youve said I dont disagree with.
 
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Astrocreep

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Is South East Asia going to be a free patch or part of another DLC? TBH I haven't even had the ability to digest all the Emperor changes.
 

LSF

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O
The Ottomans start out as a nation. No tag in the Balkans or anatolian area has close to as good national ideas.

So according to your reasoning the Ottomans ideas should be nerfed. Right?
Ottomans dominated Middle East and Balkans IRL. Siam didnt do that in East Asia IRL. Ottomans have Austria, Russia, Commonwealth, maybe Mamluks and Persia/Timurids as strong neighbours. A powerful Siam would not have so many opponents.
 
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holyvigil

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O


Ottomans dominated Middle East and Balkans IRL. Siam didnt do that in East Asia IRL. Ottomans have Austria, Russia, Commonwealth, maybe Mamluks and Persia/Timurids as strong neighbours. A powerful Siam would not have so many opponents.
So how good they did historically is another factor in determining how good their ideas should be.

The dev seems to think that Siam was #1 in the region historically which is why the ideas pack a punch.