EU4 - Development Diary - 17th of April 2018

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Ixal

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Please remove all direct combat bonuses from government reforms for all government types.
Because as long as there is no downside to rapid large scale conquest (which cant be dealt with by more military) and all other parts of the game are so far less important than combat there is no real decision involved when you have to decide between a combat bonus and a noncombat one.
+15% Manpower recovery speed or +10% morale (republic reforms) is not a real decision.

Edit: The many negatives this get sadly doesn't surprise me. Too many players just want a simple and easy conquest game and dont care for actual challenge or good non combat gameplay.
 
Last edited:

CheesySnake

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I think traced the teaser! I've located it in Bengal between the current provinces of Dhaka and the Bengal Delta.

Link: https://imgur.com/a/OWOEa
It could be due to the camera angle being shallower in the dev diary image, but I don't think the lower curve of the river at that location matches. The bend in the teaser image looks much more pronounced than that in the area you've highlighted.
 

TheDungen

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It could be due to the camera angle being shallower in the dev diary image, but I don't think the lower curve of the river at that location matches. The bend in the teaser image looks much more pronounced than that in the area you've highlighted.
Closest we've got so far. Unless they have removed all the trees it's not the HRE.
 

AirikrStrife

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First of it's primarily about moving provinces around not adding more of them, but most importantly it is about adding missions events and ideas to a huge number of tags. Though some more provinces and tags would be nice, there are less than 30 tags in the HRE at the moment as memory serves me there were hundreds of them in reality.

CoC by comparison had to deal with way fewer tags.

Well the mission rework for the England patch was quite massive. That was just an mimmersion pack, this is likely to be bigger. The most important tags (Austria, Brandenburg, Bohemia) already have their own missions aswell. I honestly don't think they'll put that much work into adding unique missions to a bunch of german OPM's. For many tags there are already excellent ideas suggested on the forum and many times devs copies them.

In terms of provinces and countries. Technically there were one country in the HRE. The HRE, which was heavily feudalized/decentralized between maybe 100-200 different "states" of various sorts. About half which would impossibly be big enough to get it's own province.

800px-Autriche_ant%C3%A9rieure.png


This is the austrian vorlande in 1648. Map roughly shows the provinces of Breisgau, Baden, Würtemberg, Memningen, Augsburg and Ravensburg in game.

It's not realistic to squize in another 5 austrian provinces in the area and this was very much the nature of the HRE.

There are ofcourse room for a handful of new tags and provinces. Some provinces which already exists could also become their own OPM's such as Bamberg, Osnabrück and Hoya, but most of the time I don't feel it adds that much to the game.

So in truth I think COC dealt with way more tags, than an HRE update would do. Especially since they added a significant amount of revolter tags throughout persia we never see.

CoC was a massive map overhaul covering 7 regions, and adding a massive amount of new tags and 80 new provinces. It is not realisticly possible to add 80 new provinces to only the HRE without making them insanely small.
 

MrSnert

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The shadow thing is weird, because as has been mentioned they always point northwest, no matter the hemisphere or season, while they are seemingly to the southeast of regular round trees in the screenshot. I mirrored the screenshot, but that still leaves them to the southwest of the trees, which also is not possible, although it sometimes appears to be like that in game when the trees are on a slope. But these ones don't seem to be. That almost would suggest a camera position that's not possible for us.
The borders don't seem to match anything presently in game, which could mean they are new borders for the upcoming patch, in which case this is just an impossible, and really bad, teaser. Or, you know, I'm just bad at looking.

The terrain, which seems to be flat grassland in summer with a small patch of regular trees suggesting a moderate climate, nevertheless leaves several possible locations to me, namely Eastern Europe, which would suggest a Poland/Commonwealth exp. or, as has been mentioned, India, which has a small patch of this terrain in the Bengal delta area.
Hungary and parts of China also seem to match the terrain, although I reckon these a bit more unlikely considering recent updates. With an extreme redrawing of borders it could even be a bit of Bavaria.

I'd be very surprised if these borders actually exist as is in the current game, and very frustrated if they don't.
 

TheDungen

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Well the mission rework for the England patch was quite massive. That was just an mimmersion pack, this is likely to be bigger. The most important tags (Austria, Brandenburg, Bohemia) already have their own missions aswell. I honestly don't think they'll put that much work into adding unique missions to a bunch of german OPM's. For many tags there are already excellent ideas suggested on the forum and many times devs copies them.

In terms of provinces and countries. Technically there were one country in the HRE. The HRE, which was heavily feudalized/decentralized between maybe 100-200 different "states" of various sorts. About half which would impossibly be big enough to get it's own province.
That's exactly what I am afraid of that they do a half assed HRE update in order to try and cover the entire thing in one go. Heck Austria is where they should add tags, Austria should be a personal union of three tags. As for the north west, the major mechanical thing there is that they need to redo the hansa. They need to get rid of the idea that trade leagues should use the same mechanics as the Italian merchant republics, and do something real with trade leagues because as they are now they are just a boring anti blobbing mechanic. In fact per of why I am so insistent on the HRE getting a broken up rework is because of MN and how poorly it handled these things last time, it seriouslt made the north german region worse. It made the hansa essentially an NPC. You can play it but it really doesn't have any interesting mechanics. Being a unified country was a better representation of it. At least then it had some of it's real life weight, was a somewhat important force to be reckoned with.
Oh and they also got to rename Westphalian to low saxon, again a thing where they made things worse Hannoverian wasn't a perfect name but it was better than westphalian.
And you assume that this while not being an immersion pack won't go into thing that isn't the map update despite even an immersion pack like RB doing it. I very much thing the HRE should be update in immersion packs because those waste less time on doing other stuff, and can actually focus on giving the region the right feel.


The shadow thing is weird, because as has been mentioned they always point northwest, no matter the hemisphere or season, while they are seemingly to the southeast of regular round trees in the screenshot. I mirrored the screenshot, but that still leaves them to the southwest of the trees, which also is not possible, although it sometimes appears to be like that in game when the trees are on a slope. But these ones don't seem to be. That almost would suggest a camera position that's not possible for us.
The borders don't seem to match anything presently in game, which could mean they are new borders for the upcoming patch, in which case this is just an impossible, and really bad, teaser. Or, you know, I'm just bad at looking.

The terrain, which seems to be flat grassland in summer with a small patch of regular trees suggesting a moderate climate, nevertheless leaves several possible locations to me, namely Eastern Europe, which would suggest a Poland/Commonwealth exp. or, as has been mentioned, India, which has a small patch of this terrain in the Bengal delta area.
Hungary and parts of China also seem to match the terrain, although I reckon these a bit more unlikely considering recent updates. With an extreme redrawing of borders it could even be a bit of Bavaria.

I'd be very surprised if these borders actually exist as is in the current game, and very frustrated if they don't.
Could be the Americas too. Somewhere on the great plains. Or even perhaps Argentina?
 
Last edited:

MrSnert

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'Could be the Americas too. Somewhere on the great plains. Or even perhaps Argentina?'[/QUOTE]

Coloration and trees don't match those areas, I think.
 

AirikrStrife

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That's what I am afraid of that they do a half assed HRE update in order to try and cover the entire thing in one go. Heck Austria is where they should add tags, Austria should be a personal union of three tags.
And you assume that this while not being an immersion pack won't go into thing that isn't the map update despite even an immersion pack like RB doing it.

The second paragraph I have a bit trouble understanding, but I assume you infer to my suggestion that there won't be a significant amount of new missions in an HRE update. That's how I believe it most likely will be, that for example Frankfurt, Nassau or Baden will never get unique missions. Maybe area based missions would be a thing.

It's not that serious amonth of new NI's that it would be a problem, and both NI suggestions and DHE suggestions there are plentiful of in the forum. Among others @bebrst and @Paland0 has suggested many of those.

In terms of provinces, do you really think there is the posssibility to add 50 new provinces to the HRE? Would you be able to click on them? Many of them would be so insignificant that given them even 3 development be too much. HRE is one of the most detailed areas in the game, someone on the forum recently calculated that the average german province is half the size of an average french province in terms of it's correspondance to real life geographic area.

Yes Austria needs an update, I have several threads about map updates to Austria. But they did a decent map update for both france and GBR in RB which was a smaller patch than this will be.

And AUstria should definitly not be a PU. I'm opposed to a balkanization of Austria, except for gameplay reasons I can validate that on historical grounds on the fact that the titular rulers of Tyrol and Austria proper were both minors in 1444 and Frederik III, duke of Styria ruled all of Austria as regent for his relatives. Even if Austria is balkanized, PU is wrong as Tyrol and Austria proper, once "free" from Fredericks regentship would have their own rulers.
 

TheDungen

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'Could be the Americas too. Somewhere on the great plains. Or even perhaps Argentina?'

Coloration and trees don't match those areas, I think.[/QUOTE]
There are some places in north america it could be. But no looking at it Argentina seems to be drier than that.
 

TheDungen

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The second paragraph I have a bit trouble understanding, but I assume you infer to my suggestion that there won't be a significant amount of new missions in an HRE update. That's how I believe it most likely will be, that for example Frankfurt, Nassau or Baden will never get unique missions. Maybe area based missions would be a thing.

It's not that serious amonth of new NI's that it would be a problem, and both NI suggestions and DHE suggestions there are plentiful of in the forum. Among others @bebrst and @Paland0 has suggested many of those.

In terms of provinces, do you really think there is the posssibility to add 50 new provinces to the HRE? Would you be able to click on them? Many of them would be so insignificant that given them even 3 development be too much. HRE is one of the most detailed areas in the game, someone on the forum recently calculated that the average german province is half the size of an average french province in terms of it's correspondance to real life geographic area.

Yes Austria needs an update, I have several threads about map updates to Austria. But they did a decent map update for both france and GBR in RB which was a smaller patch than this will be.

And AUstria should definitly not be a PU. I'm opposed to a balkanization of Austria, except for gameplay reasons I can validate that on historical grounds on the fact that the titular rulers of Tyrol and Austria proper were both minors in 1444 and Frederik III, duke of Styria ruled all of Austria as regent for his relatives. Even if Austria is balkanized, PU is wrong as Tyrol and Austria proper, once "free" from Fredericks regentship would have their own rulers.
Well then it kind of Sucks doesn't it? Considering many of the OPMs in the HRE have more people than scotland does and scotland got unique missions.

And I think there would be few if any provinces in the HRE with as little as 3 development, because the HRE had lots people and was rather wealthy, I think the least significant cities of the HRE are probably as big as many capitals from the RB immersion packs. This is central Europe people actually live here, unlike Scotland and Ireland where let's face it 3 development is far to much for most provinces and yet they added a whole bunch more provinces anyway. Hence why they need to icnrease the eveopment of places where people actually lived like the HRE and France (france should have five times the development of the British isles, but should have other stuff going on to keep it from going to an conquest spree to early on).
Britain is super overpower and over represented compared to what it is supposed to be right now and they need to bring everything else up to compensate. Truth e told I haven't seen a patch as overpowering since the Denmark patch (aka 100+ events of 'here have some free monarch points').

And yes Austria shoudl be diffrent tags, if it's a PU or a unique mechanic or whatever I don't know but Austria got to be given some stuff to do in the early game which deals with it's own centralisation, as should France (the reason France and Austria were at one point debalkanized is because it made them to powerful back before the rework of the vassal system). Representing Austria as a big untied blob is wrong and it also makes the game blobbier. For both historical and game play reasons the austria blob got to the balkanized.
 
Last edited:

AirikrStrife

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Well then it kind of Sucks doesn't it? Considering many of the OPMs in the HRE have more people than scotland does and scotland got unique missions.

And I don't think there would be any provinces in the HRE with as little as 3 development, because the HRE had lots people and was rather wealthy, I think the least significant cities of the HRE are probably as big as many capitals from the RB immersion packs. This is central Europe people actually live here, unlike Scotland and Ireland where let's face it 3 development is far to much for most provinces and yet they added a whole bunch more provinces anyway. Hence why they need to icnrease the eveopment of places where people actually lived like the HRE and France (france should have five times the development of the British isles).
Britain is super overpower and over represented compared to what it is supposed to be right now and they need to bring everything else up to compensate. Truth e told I haven't seen a patch as overpowering since the Denmark patch (aka 100+ events of 'here have some free monarch points').

Do you think you could draw 50 new provinces in the HRE?
CoC did 80 provinces. SO even if you can do 50 provinces in the HRE, it's still less than CoC.

Some historical states in the HRE were less than a fifth of a current province, some were less than a pixel on the map.

My hopes are for an HRE update, but I really don't see the point in divding it into two patches. I don't find it being halfassed.
 

cristofolmc

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Starting next week we will have some dev diaries on the map changes upcoming in 1.26.

I hope this doesn't mean Government Reforms is going to be the only core feature this expansion and everything else is going to be flavour for countries...Government reforms are a nice customization tool but it's hardly game changing....That'd be so dissappointing. I'm still expecting something "big" worth the 20 bucls.
 

TheDungen

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Do you think you could draw 50 new provinces in the HRE?
CoC did 80 provinces. SO even if you can do 50 provinces in the HRE, it's still less than CoC.

Some historical states in the HRE were less than a fifth of a current province, some were less than a pixel on the map.

My hopes are for an HRE update, but I really don't see the point in divding it into two patches. I don't find it being halfassed.
I never suggested 50 new provinces in the HRE, so why don't you stop using that strawman?
But however man provinces they add they could add as many tags because the HRE is chock full of OPMs.
Oh and those 1 pixel OPMs still have far more population (like ten times as much) than the Isles, who got a tag.

And like I said CoC glossed over a region that could have been a dozen patches if done with the granularity they for some reason (*cough* anglocentrism *cough*) gave England in RB. I opposed an english immerison pack from the get go but yeah if they want to do that then I will nag them that other regions be given the same per capita representation as England got.

And look none of this matters because it's not the HRE. There's like one place in the entire HRE where you could place the camera at a river bend and not get more trees in the picture. So unless they are tryign to be intentionaly missleading then this is not the HRE.
Someone said India seems reasonable to me. Again all of india seems a bit much I hope they make sure to give it the same granularity they gave the british isles.
 
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AirikrStrife

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Well I say 50 because you say one patch won't be enough, but while they did 80 in CoC.

And some of those 1 pixel OPMs are villages and monasteries and small castles spread out through the HRE.

There are a lot of people who prefer the simplification we currently have in the HRE, personally I don't see much point in creating dozens of small states like Freising, Passau, Bamberg, Regensburg, Tettnang, Montfort, Schaunberg etc. a few of them but not all

SO why one patch would be too small for the HRE are beyond me.
 

TheDungen

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Well I say 50 because you say one patch won't be enough, but while they did 80 in CoC.
Yeah but the problem with the ROTW is that it doesn't have enough provinces the problems the HRE face is that the tags and provinces and even regions are all the same. The HRE does not need provinces it needs contents and that take afar more work.


And some of those 1 pixel OPMs are villages and monasteries and small castles spread out through the HRE.
And yet they still have more population than the kingdom of the isles.

There are a lot of people who prefer the simplification we currently have in the HRE, personally I don't see much point in creating dozens of small states like Freising, Passau, Bamberg, Regensburg, Tettnang, Montfort, Schaunberg etc. a few of them but not all

SO why one patch would be too small for the HRE are beyond me.
Because adding provinces is easy adding content take a lot more work. And the tags and regions of the HRE have nothing which sets them apart from each other today. Heck every recihscreis (culture in game) should have it's own stuff going on, it's own issues to deal with. Ireland got that, and a reichscreis of the HRE has way way way more people than ireland or even scotland does. Heck even the least populated reichscreis' will have more people than england does and england essentially got it's own immersion pack.
I full well expect the prussian and and saxon verisons of the reformation to be made diffrent religions since anglicanism was (and yes that last part was hyperbole, but the point remains, England got made with more granularity than anything ever seen before in this game and there's nothing to justify it, england has more unique stuff than all of subsaharan africa does)
 
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luanmameili[LM]

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(Muslim) Hereditary Religious Leadership: gain Feudal Theocracy abilities

I think Norse pagan could also do that. Ruler will be known as the "Fylkir" (or "Fylkja").
 

TheDungen

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AirikrStrife

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Yeah but the problem with the ROTW is that it doesn't have enough provinces the problems the HRE face is that the tags and provinces and even regions are all the same. The HRE does not need provinces it needs contents and that take afar more work.
So how many events does northwestern Germany need?


And yet they still have more population than the kingdom of the isles.
I don't know the historical population of the isles, but today they have about 45000 inhabitants. Considering the general decline of scottish population during the early modern era, it's not unlikely to assume they didn't have significantly less population then than now. An imperial village or abbey in germany most likely had smaller population

Because adding provinces is easy adding content take a lot more work. And the tags and regions of the HRE have nothing which sets them apart from each other today. Heck every recihscreis (culture in game) should have it's own stuff going on, it's own issues to deal with. Ireland got that, and a reichscreis of the HRE has way way way more people than ireland or even scotland does. Heck even the least populated reichscreis' will have more people than england does and england essentially got it's own immersion pack.
the population of Ireland is estimated to 1-2 million inhabitants for 1500. The population for Germany in 1500 was about 12 million

http://www.grantonline.com/grant-family-genealogy/Records/population/population-ireland.htm
http://www.tacitus.nu/historical-atlas/population/germany.htm
 
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TheDungen

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Yeah? mid 15th century Ireland population about 1.5, Germany 12 million. And since there is not 10 reichkreis turns out I am very much correct each reichkreis has more people than Ireland, also I have seen way higher estimates for Germany's population mid 15h century. Which makes sense since they have it unchanged at 12 from the mid 13th century to the year 1500, which is unlikely.

And you are grasping at straws to justify this being the HRE, yes there are places you could take this screenshot in Germany but you'd have to go out f your way to not get more trees in the shot. Same thing with north america, it's about as likely to be the great plains as the HRE.