EU4 - Development Diary - 16th of July 2019

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ZenGenesis

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Ever heard of the Münster Rebellion of 1534 when a pseudo-communist protestant (anabaptist) death cult took over the city (after they failed to do the same in Strasbourg) and reigned with terror for one year until they were crushed by the city's old bishop.
The metal cages were their leaders bodies were exhibited can still be seen on the same curch.
Maybe an idea to fresh up münster...
 

JKiller96

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Maybe. We find the historical basis for a Rhinelander tag to be lacking (we couldn't even decide what it should be called) so for now we opted for a joint treatment of the Rhinelanders and Westphalians (even if I know that the people in question might object to this nowadays). What we did change is the conditions for forming Westphalia - they now no longer rigidly need you to have the lands Napoleon gave to his client state, and are instead more suited to a joint Rhinelander-Westphalian state that may organically arise. You also don't need to leave the HRE for it anymore.
Just name it Rhineland. The Confederation of the Rhine was within the same time as Westphalia, even sooner than the Kingdom of Westphalia.
 

BavarianKing

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Maybe. We find the historical basis for a Rhinelander tag to be lacking (we couldn't even decide what it should be called) so for now we opted for a joint treatment of the Rhinelanders and Westphalians (even if I know that the people in question might object to this nowadays). What we did change is the conditions for forming Westphalia - they now no longer rigidly need you to have the lands Napoleon gave to his client state, and are instead more suited to a joint Rhinelander-Westphalian state that may organically arise. You also don't need to leave the HRE for it anymore.
as a bavarian living in Berlin I can only agree! xD everthing north of Bavaria is basically the same...xD xD
 

IndigoRage

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Just name it Rhineland. The Confederation of the Rhine was within the same time as Westphalia, even sooner than the Kingdom of Westphalia.
All jokes aside, the obvious choice is Rhineland, even if it sounds a little too modern comparatively.
 

Mingmung

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@Caligula Caesar Mainz has a few idea-descriptions about their separated territories, could you guys please give it the province of Erfurt, As it historically belonged to them? Even though it was quite independent sometimes, the area was under great Mainzian influence; not Thuringian. The area around the city is quite catholic nowadays, (like the Eichsfeld, for example), because of Mainzian control.

Tl;dr: Mainz should have disjointed areas; it was one of their authentic oddities. Erfurt should be Mainzian.
index.php
 

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zweihander

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Maybe. We find the historical basis for a Rhinelander tag to be lacking (we couldn't even decide what it should be called) so for now we opted for a joint treatment of the Rhinelanders and Westphalians (even if I know that the people in question might object to this nowadays). What we did change is the conditions for forming Westphalia - they now no longer rigidly need you to have the lands Napoleon gave to his client state, and are instead more suited to a joint Rhinelander-Westphalian state that may organically arise. You also don't need to leave the HRE for it anymore.

Nice, hope it can also get a new flag.
 

IndigoRage

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Nice, hope it can also get a new flag.
Considering it's based on the Napoleonic Westphalia, and that its pre-existing flag is pretty great in its simplicity, I'd rather they didn't. Rhineland flag should go somewhere else. I'm very biased toward flags like Westphalia's and Krakow's.
 

Lavilledieu

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I will try to explain why divine ideas are better than the ideas of all three bishops.
Divine
- Starts with a missionary and a 15% manpower recovery. The missionary is useless early, but becomes very useful after about 100 years, as you are certain you will need to convert provinces in this region due to the reformation. 15% manpower recovery is very nice, and results this early in having a cheaper army as you will need less mercs. Also note that this only 5% less than in quantity ideas.
- 5% discipline is awesome. It's one of the strongest modifiers in the game, and having that this early is incredible. It is also needed, as German minors start with an important combat modifier (10% inf combat).
- -10% stability cost is for a theocracy rather useless, you rarely receive stabhits. Ignore that modifier. But -10% CCR is awesome, even more in a region where all the minors like to develop their capitals to high dev.
- 25% defensiveness is a very high number. Personally, I don't find it a great modifier (I prefer crushing armies than letting them siege down my lands), but compared to other idea groups, this remains a very high number.
- 2% missionary strength: about just in time (reformation), this modifier kicks in. Like someone else said, it's awesome that you have some of the important modifiers of religious ideas in your national ideas.
- Garrison things. Completely ignorable.
- +1 attrition pairs very well with the defensiveness. Currently, with the merc spam, it's not a great modifier, but it can be devastating against the AI.
- +10% tax is a good modifier for the already tax-focused theocracies. The modifier comes a bit late.
- -10% culture conversion: I don't really like to use that mechanic. Feels almost always wasteful.

The main strength of divine ideas are: early discipline, good army modifiers, great defensive modifiers, CCR and great religious modifiers. The idea set is good for expansion for small countries that tend to get sieged sometimes. Note that the more useless modifiers are at the back.

Let's compare it with the others:
Cologne
- Starting ideas are about equal. I prefer 15% manpower recovery, but I have to admit that for small countries, extra manpower storage could be better.
- Fabricate claims reduction: rather useless modifier. Sure, it can be useful to make a quick claim against someone for a surprise attack, but in the HRE with all the AE, you generally are sitting there long times making claims around you. And you gain like 5 months of diplomat time. That's not really great. Useless later in the game.
- Prestige decay is decent.
- Development cost reduction: decent, but competitively not great.
- Devotion and autonomy reduction are both bad modifiers. Keeping devotion at 100 is extremely easy.
- 3% heretic conversion is good, I prefer universal missionary strength, but it remains good for this area.
- 1 diplomatic reputation: good I guess? I don't like annexing vassals, so I never use dip rep that late.
- 5% discipline: finally a great modifier.
- Unjustified demands -20%: I think this is a great modifier, but it works always in the background. Paires well with the development bonus.

In short, Colognes ideas don't have a great start, give no economical bonues and are generally less geared towards conquest. The development bonus wants you to play taller, but I believe the defensiveness and the attrition are actually better for a tall play. The ideas are slightly worse than Divine ideas.

Trier
- The ideas start better than the other two. Note that Trier loses the extra missionary, which you usually need in the region. In the long run, this is equal to the starting ideas of the other two.
- 0,5 army tradtion is good to start with.
- -10% admin cost is a good modifier I think. Probably not as good as -10% CCR
- -10% AE impact: great modifier. It is also available quite early too.
- 10% defensiveness and autonomy reduction: autonomy reduction isn't really good, at this point you can crush rebels, and early in the game you don't have to up autonomy as you have the tolerance. The defensiveness number is small, doesn't really affect anything.
- 1 papal influence (or else, useless church power or an ignorable small amount of fervor): too late to really matter a lot, but probably depends on how the rework will be. In the current situation, it's bad.
- 1 Prestige: decent modifier(it hides the a good improve relation modifier)
- 1 free admin policy: depends on your available policies. With some planning it can be great.
- Awesome finisher, if a bit late: 5% discipline

Trier has the best ideas out of the three. They start strong, like the divine ideas. You still have to wait a long time before you have a good quality army (I'm not the morale guy). I would say this is equal to the divine ideas

Mainz
- 10% tax is good early, and theocracies are tax focused. 1 advisor pool is very situational, and generally it's better to have a good eco to hire-dismiss adivors instead. Not a good modifier. Works better if there were more advisors, as then getting the one you want becomes more difficult.
- 1 prestige is good this early (cf improve relation modifier). But you already start with an extra prestige modifier, so it won't matter a lot as decay will be big.
- -10% idea cost is decent I think.
- devotion modifiers are useless, devotion is easy to get.
- Recover army morale speed is weak. Rarely it will save you.
- Autonomy reduction is weak/useless.
- 20% defensiveness is weaker than the 25% of divine, and you lack the attrition modifier to make it really worth anything.
- -1 global unrest has its moments. It is a mediocre modifier. It will rarely stop rebels from spawning (-1 unrest on 10 unrest makes nearly no difference). For other countries this can help to not get certain disasters, but theocracies are less prone to disasters I think.
- 30% improve relations is a great modifier. When AE matters. This late, it's much weaker.

Mainz lacks ideas helping in wars, and these modifiers are the most important ones. There is no synergy. There is nothing that stands out. The best modifier is at the back. They're so bad that it's better to compare them to the generic ideas than to the divine ideas.

How to fix? Switching some ideas from position might already make a big difference (like the advisor pool with the improve relations or the Trierean prestige with the defensiveness). Giving 1 devotion is uselessly high, consider giving 0,5 at max, and pair it with something else. I don't want to dictate all potential fixes, you're the dev.
 

Pbhuh

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Just name it Rhineland. The Confederation of the Rhine was within the same time as Westphalia, even sooner than the Kingdom of Westphalia.
Or Ripuaria refering to the Frankish tribes that lived there and would become a great Empire.

Either way, these were Rhenish Franconians later known as Rhenish. So Rhineland, Ripuaria all are possible to unite these cultures after they fractured from Lotharingen and Franconia.

@Caligula Caesar Mainz has a few idea-descriptions about their separated territories, could you guys please give it the province of Erfurt, As it historically belonged to them? Even though it was quite independent sometimes, the area was under great Mainzian influence; not Thuringian. The area around the city is quite catholic nowadays, (like the Eichsfeld, for example), because of Mainzian control.

Tl;dr: Mainz should have disjointed areas; it was one of their authentic oddities. Erfurt should be Mainzian.

While erfurt was under mainz. That only contains a small area of the province that it covers.

Saxony_(Division_of_Leipzig)_-_DE.png


Electoral_Saxony.png


Gotha and Eisenach are in the same province and are definitely under the Thuringer branch of the Saxon dukes.
 

Malario

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With all the talk of strong ideas vs weak ones i'd like to offer a different take.

I like that some nations have better ideas than others because it allows the devs to at least give the AI a passing chance of following some historic path.

Why should these nations that aren't the juggernauts of the continent, or even the origins of said juggernauts (brandenburg) be able to stand toe to toe with them?

In multiplayer i get it, and thats why multiplayer games are constantly patched for game balance. In singleplayer which is what i personally do the most of, it can be quite fun playing an underdog, doing well despite lackluster ideas. Looking at them as a new opportunity to find synergies.

The other issue, and one brought up on here a lot around Dharma was power creep. Surely giving a mixed set, with mainz being less war focused and Trier being fairly hench but not too much is what we need for the longevity of the game.

My only personal grip is the lack of morale and the focus on discipline. I feel that idea is a bit overused and morale feelsmore thematic for religious states, but hey thats just my own opinion.
 

Mingmung

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Or Ripuaria refering to the Frankish tribes that lived there and would become a great Empire.

Either way, these were Rhenish Franconians later known as Rhenish. So Rhineland, Ripuaria all are possible to unite these cultures after they fractured from Lotharingen and Franconia.



While erfurt was under mainz. That only contains a small area of the province that it covers.

View attachment 500244

View attachment 500246

Gotha and Eisenach are in the same province and are definitely under the Thuringer branch of the Saxon dukes.
Some other parts of the Mainzian holdings are inside the province as well, or close by. Like the Eichsfeld, which was under direct Mainzian control.

Erfurt was quite a big city (around 20k people in the 15th century); it really should be Mainzian. The Thuringian dukes didn't control this city. They should call the province Gotha, otherwise, but that town was quite insignificant in comparison (5k inhabitants). Erfurt is way more important. Also, exclaves are fun. It should be treated like an Imperial Free City province.

Thuringian Erfurt is just a very big oddity and false.
 
Last edited:

Caligula Caesar

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Erfurt was quite a big city (around 20k people in the 15th century); it really should be Mainzian.

Strictly speaking, Erfurt was pretty much autonomous at this stage.
 

Pbhuh

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Some other parts of the Mainzian holdings are inside the province as well, or close by. Like the Eichsfeld, which was under direct Mainzian control.

Erfurt was quite a big city (around 20k people in the 15th century); it really should be Mainzian. The Thuringian dukes didn't control this city. They should call the province Gotha, otherwise, but that town was quite insignificant in comparison (5k inhabitants). Erfurt is way more important. Also, exclaves are fun.

Thuringian Erfurt is just a very big oddity and false.
Yeah,

In my own mod I gave erfurt to Mainz, but the density im using is way too high for vanilla:
20190515180608_1.jpg
 

mechanical_Critter

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For the player, Divine ideas are rather interesting and, relatively to the region, rather strong.

- Religious synergy with +1 miss, +2% conversion is one of the best combos in that regard. -10% stab cost in that idea set is also noticeable since, being already enticed to pick religious ideas, you stack it with the -25% from that idea set
- Your army quality is okay (+5% disc), and manpower is fine too (+15% manpower recov is arguably worse than 15% manpower pool - except that the latter are more abundantly found, and with diminishing returns it means that the % recov is quite good.)
- high defensiveness, + attrition is a combo that can be helpful, esp stacked with defensive ideas.
- tax modifier isn't horrible
- 10% CCR is amongst the worse CCR available, but ccr is amongst the best modifiers available so xd it's still quite good. You can get more if you snag HRE too.
- 10% culture conversion cost is UNIQUE. Most of the time it's gonna be useless, sure, but it's an enabler that's not found elsewhere, and stacks dreadfully effectively. Only Karaman has better I think.

And of course, if you get these as a vassal, you dearly want the -10% CCR / stab (makes them excellent land owner), the conversion (but that's for when religious conversion is fixed), and the defensiveness is neat too. They're possibly the best idea groups that you'd want your vassals to have (maybe you'd want Najd or Byz, but not even sure they are better tbh).

Now, when I look at the idea sets you've produced, I don't see much "combo potential". Mainz has idea cost reduction, but appart from that looks worse. Köln has unjustified with reduced cost to fabricate, that's a straight up nombo. The dev cost looks to be the flavour of the set which is traded with ccr, might be good enough idk. Imo the big bread winner is Trier with the 10% AE. It should kick in at tech 7, so in the hand of a player it's -10% from that and -10% from the age objective, so if you want to play on that you could combo it with Curia or, better, Espionnage for a whooping 40%. The AT makes their set slightly more potent than before. I think the idea is that tolerance replaces miss strength, with is okay but that's still one less way to go (and a complete combo at that).

So yeah, I'm fairly convinced the new set is less flexible, and overall more filled with useless things (like -0.05 autonomy - that's a really puny modifier) or things that don't work very well together.

Which, again, is imo okay. They're in the middle of the HRE, it was weird in the first place to have these countries be exceptional administrators / excellent at conversion with crazy defensiveness. It would be a different story if you were remaking LO idea set of course, because LO needs divine ideas, it fits perfectly ^^
 

Lehnaru

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Maybe. We find the historical basis for a Rhinelander tag to be lacking (we couldn't even decide what it should be called) so for now we opted for a joint treatment of the Rhinelanders and Westphalians (even if I know that the people in question might object to this nowadays). What we did change is the conditions for forming Westphalia - they now no longer rigidly need you to have the lands Napoleon gave to his client state, and are instead more suited to a joint Rhinelander-Westphalian state that may organically arise. You also don't need to leave the HRE for it anymore.

I mean there is this thing, the French client Cisrhenian Republic, for some justification, created in 1797 that lasted until its annexation by France in 1802, which is in the timeframe of the game. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisrhenian_Republic. I think you'd be mistaken in conflating Westphalian (Lower Saxon) culture and history with Rhenish (Central and Low Franconian), personally, and I don't think a joint treatment would be justified - considering the northern Rhineland and Westphalia were only really merged for industrial purposes by the Allied occupying powers after the Second World War, and there is still a large internal divide between the two peoples in the Frankenstein state to this day. Yes, they loosely shared a very holey imperial circle, but that didn't mean a lot, as there were 3 seemingly arbitrary Rhenish circles, and the circle only really functioned for taxes and standardization of coinage. As for Westphalia itself, the original definition before the Congress of Vienna included modern Westphalia along with the northern part of the Prince-Bishopric of Münster. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...g/1500px-Westfalia_locator_map_(1000).svg.png While they loosely share a history, it's more of a stretch to treat them jointly than to treat them separately - the Lower Rhine had more in common with the Upper Rhine than with Westphalia - and separate Westphalian and Rhenish formables would certainly make sense and would match Franconian, Bavarian, and Swabian formables.
 

Lavilledieu

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With all the talk of strong ideas vs weak ones i'd like to offer a different take.

I like that some nations have better ideas than others because it allows the devs to at least give the AI a passing chance of following some historic path.

Why should these nations that aren't the juggernauts of the continent, or even the origins of said juggernauts (brandenburg) be able to stand toe to toe with them?

In multiplayer i get it, and thats why multiplayer games are constantly patched for game balance. In singleplayer which is what i personally do the most of, it can be quite fun playing an underdog, doing well despite lackluster ideas. Looking at them as a new opportunity to find synergies.

The other issue, and one brought up on here a lot around Dharma was power creep. Surely giving a mixed set, with mainz being less war focused and Trier being fairly hench but not too much is what we need for the longevity of the game.

My only personal grip is the lack of morale and the focus on discipline. I feel that idea is a bit overused and morale feelsmore thematic for religious states, but hey thats just my own opinion.
You have a completely valid, well formulated opinion. But historically successful/important nations have unique events, unique decisions, large and powerful mission trees, better starting dev (usually), unique governments, unique units, unique golden era boosts and finally powerful idea groups too. I may have forgotten a few things. That list is so big, that I prefer that their is not a big difference between idea groups in how good they are. The other things mentioned are much better at representing how things historically went compared to idea groups. I almost exclusively play minors, even in MP, and I've seen how things go wrong/boring because someone takes/forms a historically important nation and just rolls over everyone, purely because he's better in everything. I also always use choose minors with decent NI, to at least have some that is worth upgrading to great power without forming another nation. Last thing, don't forget that these theocracies aren't ordinary minors.
 

McManama

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For the player, Divine ideas are rather interesting and, relatively to the region, rather strong.
Which, again, is imo okay. They're in the middle of the HRE, it was weird in the first place to have these countries be exceptional administrators / excellent at conversion with crazy defensiveness. It would be a different story if you were remaking LO idea set of course, because LO needs divine ideas, it fits perfectly ^^

What do You mean by LO?
 

CyberSpiral

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Dynamic mission rewards sounds great, more ways to complete certain missions is already great, since no campaign is like the other, and this way you won't get "no reward", like permanent claims on a big ally, for completing certain missions.

Looking forward to what else can be done with this, and to the expansion