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EU4 - Development Diary - 12th of March 2019

Let’s talk about Germany. Before I begin, I’d like you all to spare a few minutes to examine the image below:

nightmare.png


As you may be aware this is a screenshot of the glorious, beautiful, and ambitious EU4 mod ‘Voltaire’s Nightmare’. I’d like to assure you all that we are not going to implement this or anything like this in vanilla EU4.

So what are we going to do? Well for one thing we’re going to continue to rely on abstractions such as the existence of a country called “Switzerland” in 1444 rather than a multitude of semi-independent cantons. “Accuracy”, beyond a certain point, ceases to be relevant or else Voltaire’s Nightmare becomes the standard. Good design, rather than “accuracy”, is what should guide us here.

On that note, I’ve devised a few design guidelines that will advise the way we plan out the region, some of which I’ll share with you now. Bear in mind that these are guidelines and not hard rules; there will likely be the occasional exception.
  • Provinces owned by free cities should be approximately Frankfurt-sized. This creates extra space, as well as a visual distinction between Free Cities and other OPM’s.
  • All other provinces should be noticeably larger than Free City provinces. This sets a limit to how far we should split up the region.

  • A development increase in Germany in to be expected, but we should aim to keep it under control. Germany should not be dramatically more developed in the European update compared to 1.28

  • We should specifically avoid increasing the starting development of majors like Austria, Burgundy, and Bohemia.

  • It is more acceptable for “new” development to be added to weaker and/or new tags

  • It can be tempting to split tags up for the sake of “accuracy”, but keep in mind that we still want a mix of large, small, and medium powers. Consider the impact on the balance of power.

  • Adding new tags designed to begin as vassals is sometimes desirable, but starting liberty desire should be kept under 50%. If this cannot be achieved without disproportionately buffing the development of the overlord, it is better not to have the vassal.

  • Avoid adding independent OPM’s. There are literally hundreds of OPM’s that we could but definitely should not add to the game. New OPM’s should be restricted to Free Cities or else have a very good reason to exist.

  • Avoid non-contiguous country borders. This is messy for a variety of reasons, including military access.

  • Provinces adjacencies should be clearly visible, always more than a few pixels. Likewise avoid ‘four corners’ style adjacencies where possible.

  • It should look good. Think about aesthetics in terms of province borders, states, historical borders, etc.
I’ll skip the nostalgic retrospective today and get right into the gritty details. Let’s take a look at southern Germany:

southgermany.png


Bavaria is looking rather monolithic in 1.28, but it was not so historically. Divided between several Duchies most notably based in Munich, Landshut, and Ingolstadt, the Wittelsbach dynasty is at odds with itself in 1444. Bavaria wouldn’t be united until 1503, when Albrecht IV instituted primogeniture. There were also other independent polities in Bavaria such as the Bishopric of Passau and the Free City of Regensburg. We’re going to have to decide how many Bavarian states are going to exist in 1444, but we are determined for the answer to be “more”. Overall the region’s total development seems a little lackluster compared to the likes of Austria and Bohemia, so expect to see it boosted by comparison.

Looking to the west, there is the potential for more Free Cities in Swabia, as well as splitting the large province of Wurttemberg. Switzerland is trickier. We certainly don’t want to represent each province as a nation, but the fact is that the Swiss Confederacy wasn’t as large in 1444 as we currently present it. Graubünden for instance, later unified under the Three Leagues, had yet to be incorporated. We certainly want to add a province, and very possibly also a tag, for the city of Geneva. Geneva in 1444 was a somewhat unwilling subject of Savoy, and would eventually secure its liberation through entry into the Swiss Confederacy. We're also thinking about how we want to represent that rather unique "government" of the Confederacy, but more on that much later. The passes through the Alps could also use some work; we feel that there ought to be a connection between Savoia and Piedmont, while the pass between Piedmont and Wallis seems less necessary.

northgermany.png


And here’s northern Germany. As I noted in my design guidelines, there’s a temptation to overboard splitting up e.g. Saxony and Brunswick into many small duchies. In this region I think we should resist this urge for the sake of maintaining a mix of countries of different power levels within the HRE. Saxony for instance shall likely remain united. There are however candidates for splitting and potential new tags that could be added to the region. Pomerania and Silesia are both good candidates for division. Luneburg, Verden, and Magdeburg could potentially be elevated from OPM status. New OPM’s such as the Free City of Nordhausen are also possibilities. We’ll be carefully considering which provinces and countries merit inclusion and how they each fit into our overall goals for the region.

Moving on to the Low Countries, this is a region that has seen a lot of iteration over the course of EU4’s history. There is very little that can still be done without over-inflating its province density and risking an excessive reduction in the development of each province. That said, some changes we’re considering include an additional province in Flanders, splitting up Brabant, and adding the province of Julich (though we’re not quite sure how Julich is going to work). The Friesland/Utrecht border is something often complained about and will likely be revised in some way, though the solution probably will not be to add a new province. I’ve also seen suggestions for adding Frisian culture along parts of the coast, which is something we’re considering.

I hope that I’ve been able to give you some insight into the way we think about map changes, and once again I look forward to hearing your thoughts on Germany and the HRE. This concludes our series of dev diaries on the upcoming map changes. Next week you’ll be hearing from me again, but this time on the subject of mission trees.
 
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I hope Ravensburg gets deleted; Constanz (bishopric) was much more important. Metz and the like should be good Free Cities to fill up the Free City gap.

Anyway, neondt should take a very, very good look at the HRE-map I and some others made and posted in the Kleinstaaterei-thread. His priorities seem all over the place, especially if you look at the vision of Bavaria which isn't even extended to Saxony (Thuringia, anyone).

No mentions of Hoya, Lippe, a split of Stade into two tags, Cilli, Gorizia, a Hungary-borderfix, Bayreuth, Bamberg (tag), etc... Mentions of a Magdeburg-split are bordering to 'ignorance'; no significant split can be made there. Has research even be done thoroughly enough?

And Nordhausen? Really? Erfurt (owned by Mainz) and Mühlhausen are much more important. Le wut.

I sincerely hope the update will be satisfying for this region; not a repeat of the last two patches. This ddiary once again doesn't put me at ease.

Agreed. While I welcome a split of Bavaria and Pomerania it seems weird that the same standard wouldn't apply to other countries. Especially weird when balance of powers is mentioned as a reason but Saxony remains an ahistorical powerhouse in the region when instead it should be occupied with infightings of the different branches of the house Wettin for some time. Not to mention that by splitting surrounding tags the development of Brandenburg could be brought down a notch to make it more reasonable (not going to happen anyway since too many people like to form the Prussian Space Marines meme).

Meanwhile splitting Magdeburg is indeed nonsense, as you said there isn't anything to split from that province: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...nhaltinus_Ducatus_cum_terris_adjacentibus.jpg

This DD is not very satisfying :(
 
Nice ideas, thanks!

I wouldn't split Switzerland up too much because of its rather limited population and ressources at the time - but if anything, Basel ist definitely a valid candidate. There are various reasons culturally and politically why it was important in this time frame.

Also I'd argue for reversing the previous culture change in Vaud and Valais. Perhaps incorporating Swiss in a larger alemannic culture and giving the western part of Switzerland back to burgundian culture.

But I agree with previous posters that the north, especially the Hanseatic cities, should get more flavour. I'd have tons of ideas for Switzerland but the question is if that's just too small a thing in the context of the game.
 
My main problem in regards of the provinces are the borders and not really the number of provinces. I simply cant understand why they cant create nice borders wich look historical with the possibility to crate later historical borders. What I mean look at the border of Hungary in the game and look at any map between 1400 and 1918. Than take a look at the same border in Vicky 2. Same goes for Austria, and though much improved Prussia and we could find a lot of example that are good but not quite right. Modders did it (if you know a mod that simply corrects the borders without also adding a sh*tload - a few are ok - of provinces please inform me. Thank you!) and so did they in Vicky 2. Why cant they make it for Vanilla EU4?
 
We're also thinking about how we want to represent that rather unique "government" of the Confederacy
May I suggest looking at Stellaris' federation mechanic? A bunch of tag with a special diplomatic status could be interesting/fun. With an alter nance of who lead the alliance, a common army that can be used by said leader.
It could probably be re-used for other nation (Iroquois is the first one that come to my mind)

I have no idea how feasible it is, sometime I just throw ideas at the wall to see what sticks.
 
Any chance of adding Sorbian culture to Lusatia? It would slightly expand the small West Slavic culture group and historically the Sorbian region was not majority German until later in history.
 
I would add the province of Halberstadt which lies between Madeburg and Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel. It was a bishopric which lasted from at least 902 (other sources 804) till 1648. In fact the archbishobpric of Magdeburg was splitten of it when it was founded in 968.

I would add rather this than the city of Nordhausen, which is on the southern side of the harz mountains.
 
Is there a reason Switzerland can’t be treated like the Netherlands? Ie, start as a few small nations and then sometime later have the confederacy form with provinces joining by choice or by large rebellions? (Other than Seitzerlake having to be adjusted)
 
As you may be aware this is a screenshot of the glorious, beautiful, and ambitious EU4 mod ‘Voltaire’s Nightmare’. I’d like to assure you all that we are not going to implement this or anything like this in vanilla EU4.
Initially when seeing the Voltaire screenshot I thought: "They did it, they actually did it!"
Then you came and crushed my dream.:(


Couldn't some kind of special military access exist in the HRE where unless certain specific conditions apply (e.g. rivalry) you can walk across other countries to your exclaves.
 
Personally I am very happy with this Dev Diary. I like that the team have given some of their reasons for the maps, upholding my own long held belief that gameplay should always trump accuracy. From my own, admittedly brief, research but also looking into what others on the forums have said it would be very easy to oversaturate the HRE with tags. So I am pleased that this has been addressed to maintain a pleasing balance. For example adding so many opms would result in some frankly horrific trade leagues and to balance this you would have to not only change the trade league system but also the base army size. 10x3 is still 30 after all.

If I were to have a slight gripe though it would be the non-contiguous borders part of the manifesto. It has already been done with Gelre, the Palatinate and Cleves, not to mention Provence or even Austria! I don't think its too disruptive and also seems to do a fair point of the difficulty in managing disparate empires in an age where dynasty gave way to nation states. Having said all this there are probably game considerations I am not taking into account, such as proximity for calculating AE, random revolts, or diplomacy and as they mention, military access. I am happy to bow to experience in this case.

It does seem that lots of people want more and more province density which I do completely understand, and lots of the suggestions are good, steeped in historical research. From my experience of the mods though they take this to an extreme. I also think that the game already has a way to model the bits and pieces of land in the HRE with events giving claims or modifiers, such as with Denmark. Looking around on the forums as well people complain late game because of the amount of provinces and the difficulties of micro managing forces when there are hundreds of provinces to siege down. There has to be a middle ground, and ideally the game should not get more tedious in the later stages. The devs seem to be trying to reach a happy medium and I am all for that.
 
Are there any plans to change the HRE imperial authority/reform system?

Could we have a formable Swabia tag?

Will there be a rework of the Burgundian inheritance?
 
Also, maybe some of the tags that - further down the line in your decision making process - barely didn't make the cut to be on the 1444 map can be added as Revolter tags? This could be a nice compomise to please people and add some more flavor to the region overall.

This is something being considered - expect a few at least :)

Since you will divide Bavaria,can you stil form Bavaria by decision after game start as one of these Bavarian States or not?
Thanks.
Cordially.

Of course. Same goes for other duchies if we decide to split them.

Adding more Free Cities in northern Germany sounds good :) But instead of Nordhausen I would suggest Goslar

Also an option.

I hope Ravensburg gets deleted; Constanz (bishopric) was much more important.

Why not both? ;)
 
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Agreed. While I welcome a split of Bavaria and Pomerania it seems weird that the same standard wouldn't apply to other countries. Especially weird when balance of powers is mentioned as a reason but Saxony remains an ahistorical powerhouse in the region when instead it should be occupied with infightings of the different branches of the house Wettin for some time. Not to mention that by splitting surrounding tags the development of Brandenburg could be brought down a notch to make it more reasonable (not going to happen anyway since too many people like to form the Prussian Space Marines meme).

Meanwhile splitting Magdeburg is indeed nonsense, as you said there isn't anything to split from that province: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...nhaltinus_Ducatus_cum_terris_adjacentibus.jpg

This DD is not very satisfying :(
Isn't this the whole point of the new approach. The developers have provided the guidelines to the process and given their thoughts on what they would like to do. It's for the players to argue for and against and provide justification why. Based on which, they can then design the new map. At this point where it's at a "consultancy" stage, I find it incredible to say that this DD is not very satisfying.
 
On the topic of German Development and tags:

It is indeed a very dangerous game to add new provinces, tags and more development to Germany. Every single nation has it's own 3/3/3 monarch point generation baseline, and it's own ruler to generate monarch points.

What does this mean?

There is far more monarch point generation with many small tags than one large tag.

This means that Germany can be developed extremely quickly; faster than any other region in the game, due to every single tag developing on it's own accord.

And this isn't even accounting for events which add development, which can fire for every single country.

It's not unusual if you're playing a country like Austria and going for unifying the HRE [And thus wanting a high prince count to boost IA] to have a massive amount of development in Germany on unification.

Put simply; a Voltaire's Nightmare scenario would be disastrous. More tags means more development is performed. 10 tags in 30 provinces would lead to a far higher development level than 1 tag owning all that land.
 
Glory to Hildesheim!
 
How about adding the free city of Strassburg to represent its historical importance, and to split up Alsace?
The Alsace tag itself is the Prince-Bishopric of Strassburg, which would make the inclusion of the free city alongside that sort of tricky.