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EU4 - Development Diary - 12th of March 2019

Let’s talk about Germany. Before I begin, I’d like you all to spare a few minutes to examine the image below:

nightmare.png


As you may be aware this is a screenshot of the glorious, beautiful, and ambitious EU4 mod ‘Voltaire’s Nightmare’. I’d like to assure you all that we are not going to implement this or anything like this in vanilla EU4.

So what are we going to do? Well for one thing we’re going to continue to rely on abstractions such as the existence of a country called “Switzerland” in 1444 rather than a multitude of semi-independent cantons. “Accuracy”, beyond a certain point, ceases to be relevant or else Voltaire’s Nightmare becomes the standard. Good design, rather than “accuracy”, is what should guide us here.

On that note, I’ve devised a few design guidelines that will advise the way we plan out the region, some of which I’ll share with you now. Bear in mind that these are guidelines and not hard rules; there will likely be the occasional exception.
  • Provinces owned by free cities should be approximately Frankfurt-sized. This creates extra space, as well as a visual distinction between Free Cities and other OPM’s.
  • All other provinces should be noticeably larger than Free City provinces. This sets a limit to how far we should split up the region.

  • A development increase in Germany in to be expected, but we should aim to keep it under control. Germany should not be dramatically more developed in the European update compared to 1.28

  • We should specifically avoid increasing the starting development of majors like Austria, Burgundy, and Bohemia.

  • It is more acceptable for “new” development to be added to weaker and/or new tags

  • It can be tempting to split tags up for the sake of “accuracy”, but keep in mind that we still want a mix of large, small, and medium powers. Consider the impact on the balance of power.

  • Adding new tags designed to begin as vassals is sometimes desirable, but starting liberty desire should be kept under 50%. If this cannot be achieved without disproportionately buffing the development of the overlord, it is better not to have the vassal.

  • Avoid adding independent OPM’s. There are literally hundreds of OPM’s that we could but definitely should not add to the game. New OPM’s should be restricted to Free Cities or else have a very good reason to exist.

  • Avoid non-contiguous country borders. This is messy for a variety of reasons, including military access.

  • Provinces adjacencies should be clearly visible, always more than a few pixels. Likewise avoid ‘four corners’ style adjacencies where possible.

  • It should look good. Think about aesthetics in terms of province borders, states, historical borders, etc.
I’ll skip the nostalgic retrospective today and get right into the gritty details. Let’s take a look at southern Germany:

southgermany.png


Bavaria is looking rather monolithic in 1.28, but it was not so historically. Divided between several Duchies most notably based in Munich, Landshut, and Ingolstadt, the Wittelsbach dynasty is at odds with itself in 1444. Bavaria wouldn’t be united until 1503, when Albrecht IV instituted primogeniture. There were also other independent polities in Bavaria such as the Bishopric of Passau and the Free City of Regensburg. We’re going to have to decide how many Bavarian states are going to exist in 1444, but we are determined for the answer to be “more”. Overall the region’s total development seems a little lackluster compared to the likes of Austria and Bohemia, so expect to see it boosted by comparison.

Looking to the west, there is the potential for more Free Cities in Swabia, as well as splitting the large province of Wurttemberg. Switzerland is trickier. We certainly don’t want to represent each province as a nation, but the fact is that the Swiss Confederacy wasn’t as large in 1444 as we currently present it. Graubünden for instance, later unified under the Three Leagues, had yet to be incorporated. We certainly want to add a province, and very possibly also a tag, for the city of Geneva. Geneva in 1444 was a somewhat unwilling subject of Savoy, and would eventually secure its liberation through entry into the Swiss Confederacy. We're also thinking about how we want to represent that rather unique "government" of the Confederacy, but more on that much later. The passes through the Alps could also use some work; we feel that there ought to be a connection between Savoia and Piedmont, while the pass between Piedmont and Wallis seems less necessary.

northgermany.png


And here’s northern Germany. As I noted in my design guidelines, there’s a temptation to overboard splitting up e.g. Saxony and Brunswick into many small duchies. In this region I think we should resist this urge for the sake of maintaining a mix of countries of different power levels within the HRE. Saxony for instance shall likely remain united. There are however candidates for splitting and potential new tags that could be added to the region. Pomerania and Silesia are both good candidates for division. Luneburg, Verden, and Magdeburg could potentially be elevated from OPM status. New OPM’s such as the Free City of Nordhausen are also possibilities. We’ll be carefully considering which provinces and countries merit inclusion and how they each fit into our overall goals for the region.

Moving on to the Low Countries, this is a region that has seen a lot of iteration over the course of EU4’s history. There is very little that can still be done without over-inflating its province density and risking an excessive reduction in the development of each province. That said, some changes we’re considering include an additional province in Flanders, splitting up Brabant, and adding the province of Julich (though we’re not quite sure how Julich is going to work). The Friesland/Utrecht border is something often complained about and will likely be revised in some way, though the solution probably will not be to add a new province. I’ve also seen suggestions for adding Frisian culture along parts of the coast, which is something we’re considering.

I hope that I’ve been able to give you some insight into the way we think about map changes, and once again I look forward to hearing your thoughts on Germany and the HRE. This concludes our series of dev diaries on the upcoming map changes. Next week you’ll be hearing from me again, but this time on the subject of mission trees.
 
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I've actually done some more research and apparently there is a low german wyk or wiek equivalent to the danish vig. This is where Brunswick comes from for example. The original low german form was probably Brunswiek which is also a lot closer to the english form. Though I think Schleswig ending with g is still a pretty strong giveaway. Anyway what you can see is that the differences were significantly smaller than between high german and danish.

Yes, and the same goes for Dutch. Where the equivalent of vig is wijk. Which leads to Brunswijk and Sleeswijk (for Schleswig).
 
Um... The Seven Provinces of the Netherlands are already represented. The provinces were:
  1. Duchy of Guelders
  2. County of Holland
  3. County of Zeeland
  4. Lordship of Utrecht
  5. Lordship of Overijssel
  6. Lordship of Frisia
  7. Lordship of Groningen
Drenthe was never one of the seven provinces, as it was a "special" part of the republic. It was so poor it was exempt from federal taxes and denied representation in the States General.

Are we sure they are talking about exclaves for countries and not for provinces? I don't see why Cologne can't own Westphalia, but I do see the point to avoiding things like the Three Bishoprics in all its glory.
One could argue that Drenthe was a part of the Seventeen Provinces of the Netherlands (from before the Dutch Revolt) . With the additional provinces being
  1. Duchy of Guelders
  2. County of Holland
  3. County of Zeeland
  4. Lordship of Utrecht
  5. Lordship of Overijssel
  6. Lordship of Frisia
  7. Lordship of Groningen
  8. Lordship of Drenthe
  9. County of Namur
  10. County of Hainaut
  11. Duchy of Brabant
  12. Lodship of Mechelen
  13. County of Flanders
  14. County of Artois
  15. Duchy of Luxembourg
  16. Duchy of Limburg
  17. County of Zutphen (another non-represented province in the Dutch part of the Low Countries).
 
One could argue that Drenthe was a part of the Seventeen Provinces of the Netherlands (from before the Dutch Revolt) . With the additional provinces being
  1. Duchy of Guelders
  2. County of Holland
  3. County of Zeeland
  4. Lordship of Utrecht
  5. Lordship of Overijssel
  6. Lordship of Frisia
  7. Lordship of Groningen
  8. Lordship of Drenthe
  9. County of Namur
  10. County of Hainaut
  11. Duchy of Brabant
  12. Lodship of Mechelen
  13. County of Flanders
  14. County of Artois
  15. Duchy of Luxembourg
  16. Duchy of Limburg
  17. County of Zutphen (another non-represented province in the Dutch part of the Low Countries).
True. I still think there are other provinces (even in the Low Countries) that I would add before Drenthe. Drenthe is one of those provinces you add when you want to add a province just for adding a province, but don't have anything better to add. As examples I'd like to see an extra province in Flanders and maybe split the huge Luxembourg province.
 
Speaking of the Netherlands, one thing I don't think anybody has mentioned was not just adding different 'Dutch' cultures in the game, but beyond that, what about the cultural interactions between the low countries and the surrounding area? Particularly the concept of 'Dutch' and 'Rhenish' cultures outside of the modern borders of the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the Republic of Germany. The linguistic and cultural continuity of Meuse-Rhenish and Low Bergish crossed this border easily throughout the time period EU4 takes place and continued until the rigorous standardization of German beginning in the mid 19th century. Cities like Kleve, Arnhem, Geldern, Venlo, Dusseldorf, Maastricht etc. all represented a cultural and linguistic continuity and control of this area was a political goal for both the HRE and the Dutch Republic. If we are talking about finally dividing Dutch culture like German culture has been subdivided, we should try to look across modern borders. (Also sorry if this has been brought up already, in that case, I missed it).
 
Speaking of the Netherlands, one thing I don't think anybody has mentioned was not just adding different 'Dutch' cultures in the game, but beyond that, what about the cultural interactions between the low countries and the surrounding area? Particularly the concept of 'Dutch' and 'Rhenish' cultures outside of the modern borders of the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the Republic of Germany. The linguistic and cultural continuity of Meuse-Rhenish and Low Bergish crossed this border easily throughout the time period EU4 takes place and continued until the rigorous standardization of German beginning in the mid 19th century. Cities like Kleve, Arnhem, Geldern, Venlo, Dusseldorf, Maastricht etc. all represented a cultural and linguistic continuity and control of this area was a political goal for both the HRE and the Dutch Republic. If we are talking about finally dividing Dutch culture like German culture has been subdivided, we should try to look across modern borders. (Also sorry if this has been brought up already, in that case, I missed it).
Apart from Frisian, has there been talk of splitting the Dutch culture? It's already split into Dutch and Flemish. Does it need another split (other than maybe Frisian)?
 
Apart from Frisian, has there been talk of splitting the Dutch culture? It's already split into Dutch and Flemish. Does it need another split (other than maybe Frisian)?

I could have sworn I saw a bit of discussion on the matter but, I guess I was mistaken! :D

But I think the idea of splitting Dutch beyond Walloon, Dutch and adding Frisian can be made since with the state and mission system, "Dutch" can now be seen as something more abstract rather than something that has to be railroaded towards to work like in past game. We don't need a monolithic Dutch culture to try to "coax" the Netherlands into existing as much anymore. Making Gelre and Upper Guelders provinces for example Rhenish is equally valid gameplay wise as making Kleves and Berg Dutch (although the Former might be OP from a gameplay perspective). Another option is possibly splitting the monolithic "Rhenish" and "Dutch" culture up and create a new "Guelderish" culture to represent the transition from "German" to "Dutch".

Also, since I'm on the subject.... I think everybody would agree that Calais should be Flemish.
 
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I would consider changing Silesian culture to German group or just making some changes with it. Silesian people were even fighting against Poles at Grunwald so well
Given that Czech isn't German, I'd say that Silesian certainly shouldn't be German.
 
I could have sworn I saw a bit of discussion on the matter but, I guess I was mistaken! :D

But I think the idea of splitting Dutch beyond Walloon, Dutch and adding Frisian can be made since with the state and mission system, "Dutch" can now be seen as something more abstract rather than something that has to be railroaded towards to work like in past game. We don't need a monolithic Dutch culture to try to "coax" the Netherlands into existing as much anymore. Making Gelre and Upper Guelders provinces for example Rhenish is equally valid gameplay wise as making Kleves and Berg Dutch (although the Former might be OP from a gameplay perspective). Another option is possibly splitting the monolithic "Rhenish" and "Dutch" culture up and create a new "Guelderish" culture to represent the transition from "German" to "Dutch".
Yes, that's one of the problems with the cultures in areas like Germany/Low Countries. It's difficult to place exact lines of where the culture borders should go. I'm not sure about splitting the Dutch culture further, though (apart from, again maybe Frisian). It's not that big to begin with.
Given that Czech isn't German, I'd say that Silesian certainly shouldn't be German.
Most of Lower Silesia had a German majority by the game start. Perhaps a compromise solution could be made? Making a couple of the Silesian provinces whatever culture Brandenburg has could make it more desirable for Brandenburg/Prussia, while still keeping Upper Silesia Silesian (in the West Slavic group).
 
Most of Lower Silesia had a German majority by the game start. Perhaps a compromise solution could be made? Making a couple of the Silesian provinces whatever culture Brandenburg has could make it more desirable for Brandenburg/Prussia, while still keeping Upper Silesia Silesian (in the West Slavic group).
Sounds reasonable to me. (For reference, Brandenburg is Saxon.)
 
Yes, that's one of the problems with the cultures in areas like Germany/Low Countries. It's difficult to place exact lines of where the culture borders should go. I'm not sure about splitting the Dutch culture further, though (apart from, again maybe Frisian). It's not that big to begin with.

Culture is always very messy in EU4. We have had so much improvement and depth added to how players interact with provinces over the years. Terrain, Trade Goods, Cores, States, Estates, Edicts, Religion but one thing that has stayed completed static and hasn't changed since the old days of EUII is Culture. There are only 2 meaningful vectors of interaction with culture, accepted and unaccepted cultures and culture groups which are practically meaningless since you can press a button with a bird on it and suddenly a completely alien culture is "Accepted"! An English culture province owned by the Netherlands is just as acceptable as accepting Korean and there's no difference between accepting the 'German' Flemish culture anymore as accepting the 'German' Austrian culture. We need a NEW way to look at culture from a more complex system. You can argue that would be "too complicated" but are states, edicts, estates etc. caused anybody to stop playing because it made managing provinces "too complicated"? Sorry, I know this is line of thought for a different thread! :D

As for Dutch/Rhenish, I think with the state/region system combined with the mission system can still ensure that the Netherlands forms. The states can be arranged in a way to favour the formation of the Netherlands. Friesland and Groningen being made Frisian would leave only 7 Dutch provinces in their current configuration, and that's even before considering changing some of them to something else but I don't think it would be devastating to take some away if we're also talking about adding more Dutch provinces as well. The current "simple" culture system in this case can work in the favour of the Netherlands though. Cultures are accepted or not, at best, part of the same culture group, Flemish, Frisian and "Guelderish" can be made acceptable. Giving the Netherlands and Dutch minors national mission goals to occupy all the Netherlands area (or a new area to better represent Gelre!) could grant the owner "Guelderish" as an accepted culture and a branch leading to further conquests down the Rhine to the German "Guelderish" culture provinces. Or vice versa, where Koln or Cleves can push into the low country.
 
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As for Dutch/Rhenish, I think with the state/region system combined with the mission system can still ensure that the Netherlands forms. The states can be arranged in a way to favour the formation of the Netherlands. Friesland and Groningen being made Frisian would leave only 7 Dutch provinces in their current configuration, and that's even before considering changing some of them to something else but I don't think it would be devastating to take some away if we're also talking about adding more Dutch provinces as well. The current "simple" culture system in this case can work in the favour of the Netherlands though. Cultures are accepted or not, at best, part of the same culture group, Flemish, Frisian and "Guelderish/Ripuarian " can be made acceptable. Giving the Netherlands and Dutch minors national mission goals to occupy all the Netherlands area (or a new area to better represent Gelre!) could grant the owner "Guelderish" as an accepted culture and a branch leading to further conquests down the Rhine to the German "Guelderish/Ripuarian " culture provinces. Or vice versa, where Koln or Cleves can push into the low country.
What provinces would Guelderish have? Reducing Dutch to 4 or 5 provinces sounds like a bit too much to me (assuming Frisian gets added as well, which at least in my opinion is slightly higher priority). Perhaps a better solution could be to make a province or two outside the Netherlands Dutch?
 
Really curious as to what you plan to do with the Switzerland area - it's a weird, fragmented mess of treaties, subjects, associates, protectorates and condominiums in this era, and a bad fit for many of the game's mechanics. "Properly" representing it would probably need dozens of provinces, and I can't see that happening, so I'm interested to see what you'll cook up instead...

(I mean, just look at this map!)
 
What provinces would Guelderish have? Reducing Dutch to 4 or 5 provinces sounds like a bit too much to me (assuming Frisian gets added as well, which at least in my opinion is slightly higher priority). Perhaps a better solution could be to make a province or two outside the Netherlands Dutch?

Like I said, a lot of this would make more sense alongside the creation of more Dutch provinces in the first place, such as been suggested in this thread. Provinces that are part of the same cultural continuity as the Low Countries in particular are Kleves and Berg. Both had very close cultural as well as linguistic ties to the Low Countries but not Koln. Aachen was part of a linguistic continuity of Limburgish leading to the distinctly German Ripurian dialect but I would also keep it Rhenish German, especially given its importance to the HRE.
 
Regarding Switzerland, apparently creating a Geneva province with a Geneva tag is all but confirmed by the DD.
There was also talk of the Three Leagues occupying the Graubünden province. Maybe as another time.
Finally, I sensed the allusion to maybe a special governement type for the Switzerland tag. This would be awesome actually.

For example, a new republican government type called the "Swiss confederacy", which allowed neighbouring tags to become "associated sates", which would gain a diplo slot free, defensive-only alliance with the Swiss confederacy. Then New tags like the Three Leagues, Geneva, the Republic of Seven Zenden (Valais/Wallis) and maybe the prince-bishopric of Basel and the Pincipalty of Neuchatel could be such associated tags.
 
I'll say it again. Zeeland needs to be an island like Venice is.
 
accepted and unaccepted cultures and culture groups which are practically meaningless since you can press a button with a bird on it and suddenly a completely alien culture is "Accepted"! An English culture province owned by the Netherlands is just as acceptable as accepting Korean and there's no difference between accepting the 'German' Flemish culture anymore as accepting the 'German' Austrian culture.
Perhaps as a compromise between the current system and a complete rework would be to have the cost of accepting cultures scale up depending on factors such as culture group, being in the same region/continent as your capital, etc. That way nearby cultures of the same group would b easier to accept than far away cultures of different groups. Of course this is just a very rough idea.
 
It's cute how now you're valuing game balance over accuracy, and yet implemented such europe-biased design choices when it came to trade companies and capital movement.