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Balesir

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It would definitely be a first step in the right direction. I'm not sure it would work in every scenario since you frequently have peace deals above your current war score and there might be fairness issues if you combine it with options that don't cause Revanchism (at 60% war score, why should 60% provinces, 100% provinces and 60% provinces plus 40% humiliation all cause the same Revanchism?).
If you peace out for provinces it's usually a symptom of a weak home front anyway - of the quoted peace deals I don't see why the revanchism should not be the same, to be honest. Only the middle one involves a different loss of territory, and for that one "we were failed by our government!"... The last one might cause some ill-feeling against the negotiators, too, but I don't see that coming at the cost of revanchism, particularly.

But it would provide an interesting incentive to go for the war leader only and force an early 100% peace deal on them for as low war score as possible, leaving all their allies alone, instead of peacing each ally out individually.
An interesting choice, and also reasonably balanced in that it at least leaves the erstwhile war leader with his previous allies. And it also involves "failed by our government" effects since the war leader will have peaced out above war score.
 

hashinshin

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Two bordering nations hatch a plan: They designate an area ("flip zone") with provinces worth roughly 100% war score. One nation owns them and has cores. Then the other nation conquers them in a 1-day-war due to a player agreement. After the other nation has cored them (initial cost of Admin points) - is there any reason why they wouldn't flip those provinces back and forth every 15 years? One nation gets to benefit from the provinces, the other gets a (diminishing) massive bonus to tax, manpower and morale. I don't see any downside to this agreement, other than a slight risk the other player won't give the provinces back in 15 years.
Couple of problems.

You've basically "allied" with somebody, except you can't ally them since your relations modifier will be -10billion.

Somebody needs to get conquered first. This alone raises serious issues. "Yeah I'm gonna tooootally let you reconquer those territories, trust me!"

The AE you will generate will be amazing. Any smart player will use a country coalitioned by the AI to kill them. So many games I've killed another player because they forget about AE cause "it's multiplayer!" Well when I get 5-6 HRE minors in my war against you it starts to sway things way in to my favor. Suddenly there are 50k+ troops you weren't accounting for. Even for a mega-power like France or the Ottomans 50k is easily enough to sway the war. And then imagine if you get a bigger country than an HRE minor. Depending on your multiplayer game and lucky nation setup I've frequently had games where we keep lucky nations on and house rules France/Ottomans to be AI for a little bit of whackiness, and somebody gets coalitioned by France.
 
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Balesir

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Development should only be able if nation has not taken out any loans (or if this seems to be too strict not more than 1 loan). This would not be a direct investment but a simple precondition.
Interesting idea, but I don't see that it would have the desired effect. While saving to pay off the loans you are also gathering those monarch points and can just spend them all once the loan is gone.

Edit: if you wanted some monetary impact (which I don't see as necessary, but it could be supported) you could have each development increase inflation a little bit. That might represent "loose" state fiscal management effects.
 

Ironicus

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Couple of problems.
Fair points, I was more thinking of the mid to late game, when the world is pretty much divided between humans (depending on your game maybe 1600+). In the early game, it's not viable to flip so many provinces, since they are a large share of your land base. I'm also (unspokenly) assuming you are not playing with randoms who are out to troll you. Like I said, there could always be a betrayal, but would you really backstab your best buddy, larges neighbour *and* forsake a very beneficial agreement for generating Revanchism?
Depending on the final numbers, this is just a simple math problem. If you flip provinces that give you 15,000 manpower, you'd get 1,500 per year or 22,500 in 15 years. If your base manpower is something like 120,000, ie 12,000 per year then a +50% recovery decaying linearly over 20 years gives you 58,500 over the course of just the first 15 years. Hell yeah, I'd take that! If the tax increase is on the same level, it is actually beneficial to not keep the provinces but to give them back. There is no trust needed, just self-interest! And I can't even calculate the morale bonus because we have no numbers, but it will be very very potent since it directly increases your combat strength relative to your enemies, which is otherwise pretty much out of your influence apart from taking certain ideas and keeping your prestige high. And Revanchism goes on top of perfect combat stats too, giving you the absolute edge against the whole world!
 

User4035

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Feature request:
Please make revachism an option like AI bonuses is.
This wont be popular in MP games because no matter how its designed it will be exploitable.

As for single player - ill give it a shot. I like fiddleing with options and seeing games turn out differently than the last.
But its gotta be an option, its just such illogical concept for a historic simulator.

P.S. I just watched arumbas new CKII campaign and boy that game is looking good since I last loaded it up.
So if 1.14 eu4 doesn't tickle my fancy ill switch cabins over to CK2.
 
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ChildeR

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So it is fine to turn a small town into a metropolis in a day's worth of time.o_O
Basically... yes.

You need hundreds of MP to do that. It means a country putting several years of resources into it. If you can't imagine how it would happen, think about a decent sized country deciding to move all their military training and development into a small town. It could grow large and important practically overnight. Whether the cost would be worth it is another matter.

That's not optimal – you would usually be much better off increasing development one click at a time as you get enough points and probably spreading it around too – but the game lets you do that if you want.
 
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Wagonlitz

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Finnway

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I really like Revanchism. I just hope the morale bonus isn't OP. Please tell me it's limited by the amount of territory you have or how far behind you're in tech. It'd be really stupid for a 10 province country to have 200% morale. But on the flip side, if it was a OPM that's 5 tech levels behind you I wouldn't have a problem with it.
 

Metz

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Basically... yes.

You need hundreds of MP to do that. It means a country putting several years of resources into it. If you can't imagine how it would happen, think about a decent sized country deciding to move all their military training and development into a small town. It could grow large and important practically overnight. Whether the cost would be worth it is another matter.

That's not optimal – you would usually be much better off increasing development one click at a time as you get enough points and probably spreading it around too – but the game lets you do that if you want.


That's not the same thing moving training and development to a small town. What about tax income and production? Having more Manpower reserves is not the same as having more training available. If you want to massively increase development it should take time.
 

Canute VII

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I'm really not sure what to think about Revanchism. I don't like the sound of strong nations being even more stable and harder to cripple. Can you mod that?
Maybe the extent of revanchism could be skaled by relative development and relative manpower of the opponents. So (making up the numbers) a 400 development, 50000 manpower hungary that wins gainst a 800 development, 100000 manpower ottoman empire would cause the ottomans roughly only 50% of the revachism envisaged by pdx. The other way around though, it would be 100%.
 

Link76

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Very nice indeed. in Victoria II you also have this and its great. In the start of the campaign the Ottomans got this (6% revenge) because they lost there cores on Crete, Syria, Judea and Gaza are in the hand of Egypt. Sweden got 8% because it lost Finland. Ethiopia also lost core land to Egypt. Question: what countries in Eu4 will also start with a revenge Bonus?

Morocco: because of Ceuta to Portugal

France: because of England’s hold on Normandy and Calais

any more?
 

Hector of Troy

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The developers should beware that much of the anticipated complaints about the new revanchism mechanic comes from those who play for the sole purpose of getting WC achievements. They're the same ones who keep complaining about overpowered rebels, coalitions, aggressive expansion, small nations choosing to play tall, westernizing, coring time, etc.

I hope the developers will stop indulging this sort of players and will start finally introducing or strengthening features that will reflect the true difficulties of what managing a large empire should be like. The very reason EU4 and CK2 both become dull games after a while is precisely the lack of late game challenge. At a certain point, It all comes down to steamrolling other countries without any external or internal resistance, which is frankly quite boring.
 
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rayyuri

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Two things that make a bad game:
- being too easy / silly AI
- exploits / unpolished game mechanics

Edit: one sign of these in a grand strategy game would be the ability to complete world conquest.

I think the key thing for WC possibility is the "snowballing" effect.

For a game like EU4, even if the AI is good enough, an OPM AI can never stop a 1000-development player nation. For a player, he/she can always expand by annexing smaller nations and eventually become undefeatable, if there is no proper punishment for being too large. The start may be challenging because of the good AI, but once you are big, you have no challenge.

So I'm expecting more important internal management feature, or some size limitation mechanic.
 
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Beagá

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I think it´s not realistic to expect AI on Normal to be challenge for players with 500 hours played. Or more (and there are many - I´m one of them with 750 hours).

So demanding better features is ok, but eventually people should play on Hard. Hell, no one cares about what people accomplish on Civilization in Prince difficulty. What matters is Emperor and above.

Frankly the game would have took a MUCH better path if Wiz realized that World Conquest shouldn´t be achievement, circa patch 1.2 or 1.3. They kept it, and the result is absurd expectations for game balance.
 
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User4035

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@User4035 mind expanding on your disagree?
Sure.
You said the culture convert button is equivalent to the nazi's rounding up and exterminating people.

In this time period that's not true at all. In fact the only comparison to that is Christopher Columbus working the entire native populations to death on the Caribbean islands - which he was tried and convicted of genocide.

The culture convert button is more an effort to make the populations adopt your culture. Only giving patronage to those who speak your language.outlawing the native language. Banning ethnic clothing and festivals. Intermarrying. Sending elites off to school in your culture. Etc....
Sometimes its harsh with penalties, other times its through incentives.


I don't know why people disagree with my post about wanting to make ravachism an option instead of mandatory. ....they can't tell that its non-historical and completely against logic? Or do they just not care and simply want to play a numbers game where the AI functions more like the Zombie mod?
Yes this is a partial insult on intelligence, not necessarily insulting peoples preference in games because whatever someone finds fun is ok.
 

Balesir

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That's not the same thing moving training and development to a small town. What about tax income and production? Having more Manpower reserves is not the same as having more training available. If you want to massively increase development it should take time.
Think of it coming from the way development was encouraged - tax breaks to stimulate town growth, for example. The tax income to the state doesn't actually go up while the town is growing, only when the tax breaks run out. And, if the inducements didn't have the desired effect, the additional taxes never come at all (the MPs got spent on something else)...

I don't know why people disagree with my post about wanting to make ravachism an option instead of mandatory. ....they can't tell that its non-historical and completely against logic? Or do they just not care and simply want to play a numbers game where the AI functions more like the Zombie mod?
Yes this is a partial insult on intelligence, not necessarily insulting peoples preference in games because whatever someone finds fun is ok.
Hmm, I think it might depend which part of the period you are referring to, here. For the late medieval, sure, revanchism was arguably not such a big deal (although many/most leaders and the best soldiers were noble or "gentle" and had somewhat analogous concepts of honour and duty), but by the Napoleonic period nationalism, patriotism and all the sundry "stuff" that goes with that was going quite strongly. So, overall, I don't think it's such a stretch as you make out. Soldiers of the time, at least, cared about being bested by a "foreign prince".
 
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Arnoldo

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I really like these new features, sounds awesome!! The revanchism mechanic seems really nice, but obviously has a potential to become exploitable, e.g. losing little amounts of provinces in multiple wars will quickly raise the modifier. Maybe, when a country wins a war, it should lose half the amount of revanchism the opponent gains as a countermeasure? Just a thought.