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markros50

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o4tLGFQ.png

Oh the rage over 'tiny Poland' in thousands of polish houses right now :D Believe me I can hear them. Been wondering why all the screams :)
 

Will Steel

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Can we get that elephant coat of arms plox?! :D
 

impspy

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Just noticed on the live stream, why is trento in the german region?

Probably because the majority of the province (South Tyrol) was part of a German state for the entire game period.
 

Fluffy_Fishy

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It really should be Austrian imho.
No It shouldn't both for historical and design reasons. The culture much more matches the culture of north Italy than it does Austrian, Also without it you end up with 1 less of a tiny Venetian culture which actually makes things a bit too easy to get accepted culture.
 

impspy

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No It shouldn't both for historical and design reasons. The culture much more matches the culture of north Italy than it does Austrian, Also without it you end up with 1 less of a tiny Venetian culture which actually makes things a bit too easy to get accepted culture.
But what does the province represent in game? Not the entirety of the "South Tyrol Province" but the portion that belonged to the Austrian emperor and served as his gateway into Italy.
Trent%2C_Brixen_and_the_Tyrol_in_1788.jpg
The vast majority of Hapsbourg South Tyrol was German:
800px-Ethnic_Distribution_South_Tyrol_Census_1880.png

It could be split and the Bishopric of Trentino added but that wouldn't add much to the game.
 

Fluffy_Fishy

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Tyrol and Trent still come under the claims of both the the earlier and later Italian crown, also at the start of the game its fairly solid to being Italian, a mid 18th century map and 1880 census doesn't really show a good value of who lives there in 1444 or least for the majority of the game at all... Nothing about making the already tiny Venetian culture smaller?
 

impspy

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Tyrol and Trent still come under the claims of both the the earlier and later Italian crown, also at the start of the game its fairly solid to being Italian, a mid 18th century map and 1880 census doesn't really show a good value of who lives there in 1444 or least for the majority of the game at all... Nothing about making the already tiny Venetian culture smaller?
The province, if it has Venetian culture, runs the risk of ahistorically defecting to them when in the game's time frame Tirol was one of the most loyal parts of the Hapsbourg Crown lands:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrolean_Rebellion
 

Fluffy_Fishy

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The province, if it has Venetian culture, runs the risk of ahistorically defecting to them when in the game's time frame Tirol was one of the most loyal parts of the Hapsbourg Crown lands:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrolean_Rebellion
And for what reason could it not be taken by say Milan, Venice or Switzerland and become one of the most loyal lands of those nations? Again 1809 seems pretty sketchy, there's nothing wrong with Austria culture converting, but at the start and for the most part It would be filled with people with Italian lineage and culture, trading and interacting mostly with the po valley and what is now north east Italy.
 

impspy

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And for what reason could it not be taken by say Milan, Venice or Switzerland and become one of the most loyal lands of those nations? Again 1809 seems pretty sketchy, there's nothing wrong with Austria culture converting, but at the start and for the most part It would be filled with people with Italian lineage and culture, trading and interacting mostly with the po valley and what is now north east Italy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_South_Tyrol#Middle_Age
While the boundary remained unchanged for centuries, Bavarian settlers further migrated southwards down to Salorno (Salurn).

This is well before the start of the game. Moreover, that was just one example. Every history of Tirol include the South Tyrolese as part of the group, and they are consistantly refered to as the overwhelming majority in the region outside of Trentino. In return for the guarenteeing of their rights (including freedom from conscription) the Tyrolese remained loyal subjects and fiercely resisted outsiders (Milan and Venice both tried to take it and failed).
 

Fluffy_Fishy

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_South_Tyrol#Middle_Age


This is well before the start of the game. Moreover, that was just one example. Every history of Tirol include the South Tyrolese as part of the group, and they are consistantly refered to as the overwhelming majority in the region outside of Trentino. In return for the guarenteeing of their rights (including freedom from conscription) the Tyrolese remained loyal subjects and fiercely resisted outsiders (Milan and Venice both tried to take it and failed).
5-600 is too far the other way... Wouldn't most regions would resist foreign occupation for a good deal like that? CK2 lists the region as being under the Italian culture in the latest possible bookmark too. I think what is happening here is the blur that you get at the edge of cultures, there are going to be as many arguments for and against the sides. I would still be fairly sure during the height of the Italian projection at the start of the game the culture would be more aligned to that of Italians, the Austrians had only held the region for 80 years by the game start, not really enough to assert the gradual conversion to cultural dominance but long enough to establish a legitimate and stable administration lead to the dominant austro culture spread of the mid 1600s.
 

impspy

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5-600 is too far the other way... Wouldn't most regions would resist foreign occupation for a good deal like that? CK2 lists the region as being under the Italian culture in the latest possible bookmark too. I think what is happening here is the blur that you get at the edge of cultures, there are going to be as many arguments for and against the sides. I would still be fairly sure during the height of the Italian projection at the start of the game the culture would be more aligned to that of Italians, the Austrians had only held the region for 80 years by the game start, not really enough to assert the gradual conversion to cultural dominance but long enough to establish a legitimate and stable administration lead to the dominant austro culture spread of the mid 1600s.

It was the border where the two met: Tyrolese Germans in the north and center, Italians in the extreme south and Trentino, and Ladin in the south East. Brenner pass connects South Tyrol directly with Austria proper and there's no reason to assume that the people on one side would be different from the other considering they were all Bavarian settlers.

Moreover, the Hapsburgs weren't the first German rulers of the area: the previous counts had all been Germans since the 12th century. When it comes down to it, considering the history of the area (overwhelmingly German in 19th century census data, a history of loyalty to the Hapsburgs over the entire game's timesframe, a history of Bavarian settlement) and the game play implications that culture can have, I think its best if its made Austrian so that it remains an integral part of Austria barring player involvement.
 

Fluffy_Fishy

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It was the border where the two met: Tyrolese Germans in the north and center, Italians in the extreme south and Trentino, and Ladin in the south East. Brenner pass connects South Tyrol directly with Austria proper and there's no reason to assume that the people on one side would be different from the other considering they were all Bavarian settlers.

Moreover, the Hapsburgs weren't the first German rulers of the area: the previous counts had all been Germans since the 12th century. When it comes down to it, considering the history of the area (overwhelmingly German in 19th century census data, a history of loyalty to the Hapsburgs over the entire game's timesframe, a history of Bavarian settlement) and the game play implications that culture can have, I think its best if its made Austrian so that it remains an integral part of Austria barring player involvement.
I'm not totally opposed to the idea of it being made a part of Austria but its entirely possible that it could have gone both ways, I still stand by the idea that the local would have been heavily Italian until the decline of Venice and to a slightly lesser extent, the other major north Italian city states, also the cooling off of the renaissance would have had an effect too. I'm still not convinced that it should come under the german region, due to the real life national mapping of claims and both earlier and later nations. On a game design point, outside of the major overhaul mods the stepping stone into north italy isnt really represented much so I don't really see that as much of an issue.
 

Adrianople

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Thraki is not part of Anatolia. It is part of the Balkans and a historical part of the Hellenic lands. Area has, for the majority of its history until the Greek-Turkish Population exchange and the Istanbul Pogrom, along with repeated blows of blatant Islamisism and ethnic hatred promoted by the Turkish government, been Greek. The fact that the ikons in the Hagia Sophia aren't in Turkish speaks to the great past of Thrace. I know this may seem minor compared to perhaps a misnomer towards, per say, the Uppland area, but it has the same amount of impact when a European land, Thrace, is placed with the Asian Anatolia. Thrace is European. It is connected to Asia by only bridges crossing the Hellespont and the Bosporos strait. Just throwing in my two cents.
 

Will Steel

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Thraki is not part of Anatolia. It is part of the Balkans and a historical part of the Hellenic lands. Area has, for the majority of its history until the Greek-Turkish Population exchange and the Istanbul Pogrom, along with repeated blows of blatant Islamisism and ethnic hatred promoted by the Turkish government, been Greek. The fact that the ikons in the Hagia Sophia aren't in Turkish speaks to the great past of Thrace. I know this may seem minor compared to perhaps a misnomer towards, per say, the Uppland area, but it has the same amount of impact when a European land, Thrace, is placed with the Asian Anatolia. Thrace is European. It is connected to Asia by only bridges crossing the Hellespont and the Bosporos strait. Just throwing in my two cents.

The entire Anatolia is European in the game, due to gameplay reasons.
 
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