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Zelius

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Tribes will not have +100% manpower under the new system, the modifiers were adjusted.

Looking forward to that - hope it's still more significant than the 112.5% -> 125% we get currently.
Edit: Wait, if the autonomy-negation also worked for hordes with their autonomy floor, the horde govt +50% manpower would already cause manpower to bounce to 150%..

Humanist takes a hit because one of its ~special powers~ is it allows nations with +tolerance heathens to be able to avoid rebelspawn without lowering autonomy even with almost constant 100% OE, which under old system was pretty much a 2x increase in province utility for freshly conquered provinces. If you can raise autonomy and shove most of freshly conquered land into the proper estate it really lowers the relative power of humanist.

I know you mean raise autonomy, and mm, I suppose so, though you would still benefit from e.g. extra manpower and tax in a Burgher province.
 

Sunspawn

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New Poland-Lithuania mechanics allow to get PU over them with Saxony, as it was historically. Glorious, simply glorious.
Except that Saxony's duke was simply elected by the Sejm, he did not conquer the PLC and, due to differing mechanics for the lack of a better word, both sides were essentially equal - Saxony, due to being an Imperial vassal and elector, could not be treated as lesser to the PLC and the PLC was too big to be treated as the lesser to Saxony. But I suspect that in game terms it is PLC with a PU over Saxony, not the other way around due to LD considerations and such.
 
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MiniaAr

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Except that Saxony's duke was simply elected by the Sejm, he did not conquer the PLC and, due to differing mechanics for the lack of a better word, both sides were essentially equal - Saxony, due to being an Imperial vassal and elector, could not be treated as lesser to the PLC and the PLC was too big to be treated as the lesser to Saxony. But I suspect that in game terms it is PLC with a PU over Saxony, not the other way around due to LD considerations and such.
Well, I understand the change differently.
It was already possible for PLC to force a PU on Saxony if Sawony's dynasty got on the PLC throne. But now with new mechanism, Saxony might (RNG involved) get a CB to force a PU on PLC if they share a dynasty, thus the reverse situation will also be possible.

If I'm not mistaken, I think it's great. :)
 
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Baron Tanks

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So maybe someone can answer this question for me. The dev diary says the following (picking the manpower example, but applies across all categories):
  • Provinces controlled by the Nobility, Cossacks and Tribes will no longer have the effects of autonomy applied to manpower and force limit.
Does this then mean that there is effectively no atonomy at all anymore for this stat of the province? Or just the increase associated with estate? To put into example:

I'm a horde. I conquer a new province. It is at 50% autonomy. I hand province to Tribes. It will now give me manpower as if it is 0% autonomy? Because if I'm a horde, that is stronger than a normal province under my nation's autonomy floor. Am I misreading, or is this WAD? If so that seems dangerously powerful. Even when the local manpower modifier is removed in the case of tribes.

JUmnhoq.png
 

Chief of Staff

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@Wiz maybe you could drop some hints about what you will talk about regarding patch 1.15 in next week's DD? :p
 

Pyramid_Head

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Well, at least now Estates got promoted from "Pain in the Ass" to "Minor Annoyance". Maybe in a few yeras of patching they'll evolve into something at least somehow fun or not as annoying.
 
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17blue17

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@Wiz

please have someone double check the scopes for area, region, superregion, and province groups. There are reports in the mod forum that they do not always work in effect sections for decisions, events etc.
 

zdlugasz

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Although I understand of removal of estates on conquest, I absolutely do not get why they are supposed to get removed on integration of vassal/PU subject.
You do not like nobility estates in Commonwealth? Do not PU them and do not integrate them.

What makes it more disgraceful is combination of free land, lack of estates etc on union inheritance in magical decisions/events affecting Aragon, Lithuania or Scotland (or free land in Burgundian inheritance).
 
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LastSalian

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Although I understand of removal of estates on conquest, I absolutely do not get why they are supposed to get removed on integration of vassal/PU subject.
You do not like nobility estates in Commonwealth? Do not PU them and do not integrate them.

What makes it more disgraceful is combination of free land, lack of estates etc on union inheritance in magical decisions/events affecting Aragon, Lithuania or Scotland (or free land in Burgundian inheritance).
Guess it's because of:

This is one of those cases where it makes absolute perfect sense historically: The local nobility didn't just up and vanish when a new ruler took over, and nearly all conquerors had to depend on the same local elites that ruled in the territory before their conquest. However, gameplay wise this simply didn't work out, with players experiencing sudden Estate influence spikes they could not control or having to revoke a badly placed Estate to give the province to another Estate. The option to have Estates remain on conquest will stay for modders that want to emphasise history over gameplay.
 
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Wagonlitz

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zdlugasz

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Guess it's because of:

That is extremaly "lazy" argument (on Wiz's part). Ay... my Castillian game is too hard, I need some crutch.
(as I wrote in other thread: pendulum goes from one extremum to another, ending in butchered estates and brainless WC).

I do not know how exactly influence is calculated, but it seems to me that is is based on % of controlled development.
Say that Lithuanian's development is roughly equal to Polish one (after integration of Masovia and conquest of Teutonic Order).

So Poland "inherited" Lithuania. If Lithuania was 100% by nobles then would nobility agree to give their power back to absolutistic ruler?
No, Lithuanians wants to have impact, and if Paradox did not invent new math here, the overall influence should be (100 + Polish influence)/2. If you do not like it - revoke estate.

Edit: in perfect word influence of all estates would add to 100%, my technical education and degree does not work with Paradox mathematics

Edit2: I suspect that the real reason is that AI can not cope with estates
 
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LastSalian

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@Wagonlitz, @zdlugasz I don't know, guys, I actually welcome these changes. I prefer sound game mechanics over historicity, and the revoke-estate micromanagement is totally unrewarding. It was kind of an expansion deterrent.

Negative effect was people like me disabling Cossacks due to this behavior. Yes, it was kind of historical, but it made the game unnecessarly cumbersome vs. playing the game without the DLC.

BTW, it is interestingly balanced by the loyalty decay. It's just perfect game-mechanics-wise.

Certainly I'll play with Cossacks on when 1.5 gets released.
 
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Cri11e

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Awesome. Best change for me is definitely the 80 trust critical point. I was wondering if maybe a "Historical Friend" modifier could be developed after a long period of high trust, but non-rivalry over 80 trust is a good solution. Building comfy alliances is a good feeling. It's always a shame when your ally flips from 100 to 0 real quick. The desired province map mode already helped mitigate that, though this should be even more of a good thing.

Just the new diplomatic system was worth the Cossacks purchase, because the relationships are so dynamic now. I see an amazing new world every game. It feels like someone is watching me play the game and hand-tailoring my experience. These diplomatic changes are great at delivering the feeling of power to control the development of a new world.

Maybe unrelated, but I especially like the new alliances of opportunity/necessity between different religious groups that were previously unheard of -- when do I get to set up a royal marriage between an Orthodox and Ibadi country with Humanist ideas? ;)

I remember playing beneath france in the spainish area and allied with france for about 200 years and behold a lovely bright and sunny day they decide to rival me, rip, it was really disappointing so I appreciate the sense of these changes as well. And the marriage with humanist ideas is a pretty interesting suggestion.
 
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Wagonlitz

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@Wagonlitz, @zdlugasz I don't know, guys, I actually welcome these changes. I prefer sound game mechanics over historicity, and the revoke-estate micromanagement is totally unrewarding. It was kind of an expansion deterrent.
Except it wasn't really a problem previously; I really don't see how you could get an unexpected influence spike unless you did something braindead. And I don't think it wasn't a sound mechanic in 1.14, but obviously we disagree on that.
And historicity is important; otherwise this would just be civilization; that the game is rooted in history is what makes EU4 EU4.
 
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Timewalker102

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I have a slight, flavour based suggestion for Hindu Estates: In a Hindu nation, the Estates should be renamed Brahmins (Clergy), Kshatriyas (Nobility) and Vaishyas (Burghers). The current three Estates fit pretty well with the Hindu caste system, actually.
 
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tobias.mb

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I have a slight, flavour based suggestion for Hindu Estates: In a Hindu nation, the Estates should be renamed Brahmins (Clergy), Kshatriyas (Nobility) and Vaishyas (Burghers). The current three Estates fit pretty well with the Hindu caste system, actually.
That's already in the game...

e.g.
Code:
custom_name = {
        desc = estate_brahmins
        trigger = {
            religion = hinduism
        }
    }

in the script for church estate
 
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PAnZuRiEL

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It's just occurred to me, but shouldn't Nobility, Cossacks and Tribes prevent the effects of autonomy applying to land forcelimit, with Burghers having the same effect on naval forcelimit? There's already a big incentive to give Important Centres of Trade to the Burghers faction, but it seems like that will mean the CoT naval forcelimit bonus is kind of going to waste.
 
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I don't really have a problem with forts personally (though I understand the frustration) but it with this design it seems nigh impossible to completely iron out every weird pathing. For that reason, sometimes I really think it'd be a lot easier if forts only blocks passage through their own province, without having a ZoC.

Failing that, I hope they will consider putting information like which fort is blocking your movement in the tooltips.

I really like this idea.

Reduce the cost of forts and have them only block movement through their own province.
 
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