EU4 Dev Clash #12 - Emperor - Wednesdays 15:00 CET

[Blackwhitecavias]

I'd argue this coalition was needed: The Prussia-Commonwealth alliance (Saxony and Brunswick had good armies, but the quality of Prussia and Commonwealth was (and is) just better) was just too strong for most other players. Considering the sheer numbers needed to defeat them they would have become either king or kingmaker (they could still be, but are less likely to be) in the next 2 sessions as no other major powerblock can take them on land.
Aside from that most members had a good reason (gameplay or personal) to join: The Italians and Austria were attacked by them, Brazil and Andalusia were annoyed by them last session. Benin has been an ally of multiple alliances fighting the Germans. StarNaN was in for revenge and has been allied to the Italians previously. KaiserJohan and Delhi gain by not becoming a target themselves. Nepal was helping Delhi. Yemen didn't wanna die and by being in the alliance they survived another session. That only really leaves Vermont and USA in the war and I don't really think they contributed a huge amount.

I expect some things could still change in the last sessions to bring someone else into the top 3, but I expect the first place will probably go to Brazil, Japan or Delhi (Ming is a possibility, but StarNaN would have to get help from a lot of allies against both Kaiser and Ming while simultaneously ensuring Brazil doesn't win).

 

[PocketWraith]

The Germans did the right thing sticking together to the very end.

See, you say this, and yet you've spent a page or so arguing that Wiz should have switched sides and joined the Germans rather than sticking with his own allies. Is it only the right thing to stick to your allies when they have overwhelming military strength?

 

[Northernwwater]

I'd argue this coalition was needed: The Prussia-Commonwealth alliance (Saxony and Brunswick had good armies, but the quality of Prussia and Commonwealth was (and is) just better) was just too strong for most other players. Considering the sheer numbers needed to defeat them they would have become either king or kingmaker (they could still be, but are less likely to be) in the next 2 sessions as no other major powerblock can take them on land.
Aside from that most members had a good reason (gameplay or personal) to join: The Italians and Austria were attacked by them, Brazil and Andalusia were annoyed by them last session. Benin has been an ally of multiple alliances fighting the Germans. StarNaN was in for revenge and has been allied to the Italians previously. KaiserJohan and Delhi gain by not becoming a target themselves. Nepal was helping Delhi. Yemen didn't wanna die and by being in the alliance they survived another session. That only really leaves Vermont and USA in the war and I don't really think they contributed a huge amount.

I expect some things could still change in the last sessions to bring someone else into the top 3, but I expect the first place will probably go to Brazil, Japan or Delhi (Ming is a possibility, but StarNaN would have to get help from a lot of allies against both Kaiser and Ming while simultaneously ensuring Brazil doesn't win).

Every war in EU4 is "needed" from someones perspective. For all intents and purposes EU4 is a zero sum game.

 

[MatRopert]

I do feel like the danger of the German-Czech-Polish pact was overplayed by a bunch.
Was it a local threat? Certainly, as are any stronger neighbours. But local army power isn't everything. Long term the score was already favouring Delhi, Japan and Brazil with no sign of stopping, while most of us in Europe are stuck with VCs on our allies, which, as demonstrated again today, we stand by.
I admit to have played a bit of world police to keep the status quo (and join interesting wars, such as the Rescue of Milan or the American Expedition), but this will probably not happen again. After today it is clear that there are only 3 other nations worth defending: Prussia, Saxony and Brunswick.
I look forward to see the others being piecemealed by the biggest powers around.

 

[Northernwwater]

See, you say this, and yet you've spent a page or so arguing that Wiz should have switched sides and joined the Germans rather than sticking with his own allies. Is it only the right thing to stick to your allies when they have overwhelming military strength?

I don't know what the game goals are for the Papal State. I'm just pointing that multiple diplomatic options existed.

 

[threetypesofcorn]

Oh my God, what a war. Northern Europe, a veritable fortress against the world!

To people who are debating the unfairness of it all: This is EUIV, ladies and gentlemen

I hope the players on the German side appreciated the chance to play this kind of war, outnumbered, superior in quality and see how long they can last against just about everyone else, even though the war itself must have left a sour taste.

 

[adin85]

French Paradox was so Polish. Till 17 Superpower which helps helpless and 18 century to be participated. Good luck east central block.

 

[KaiserJohan]

Will not expand on it now but in the grand scheme of things I had several good reasons to join.

... I was betrayed by the only large alliance I had all game ...

 

[Sir-Rogers]

Will not expand on it now but in the grand scheme of things I had several good reasons to join.

Size is relative

 

[Republic of Mercury]

This coalition was by no means inevitable, it took a lot of talking and sorting out and was pretty close to collapsing a couple times.

Ultimately for me it came down to the simple fact that I didn't want my allies getting eaten by the Germans one by one, presumably then followed by me. I didn't really gain much from the coalition but I'd rather always fight than roll over and die.

I called it weeks ago. Well, almost; I was expecting Wiz to eat Italy. But I the point I wanted to convey was "if you leave Wiz alive, Wiz will do Wiz-things. It's not a risk worth taking."

I think the Czech-German aliiance would've benefited from eliminating Wiz and then selling his land to Milan and Sardinia-Piedmont, instead of expanding as much as they did. Makes them look less intimidating on the map, makes the Italians more threatening, and prevents Wiz from doing Wiz-things. (p.s. still no offense intended, O Wizly One. You're just too skilled to be left to your own devices. Which you were. And then this happened.)

 

[sprites]

I must say : this was a very impressive coalition!
and AI Mexico doing reverse manifest destiny on USA and Japan- CN : very good
i wonder what will come out of the last two sessions... of the germans , Prussia was hit the hardest
Austria got a bit of Anatolia back + 3 provinces from the war
these VC will stir up a little the game , well unless for Japan , that one seems easy to grab

 

[Lehnaru]

Amazingly fought by Commonwealth, Prussia, Brunswick, and Saxony. I hope those 4 players write a list of everyone who joined that coalition and work together to sabotage them in the next dev clash, especially the one who put it together. I eagerly await the aggressors tearing each other apart in the next couple sessions.

 

[Regaccio]

The best part of a giant coalition is watching it devour itself.

 

[DystopianAlphaOmega]

Interesting session. I think how close the war was really shows that something like this was needed. The German bloc wasn’t ahead on score, but they were by far the dominant land force (as evidenced by them holding their own against the rest of the world until they were slowly ground down). Even then, they lost way more to rebels than they did to actually ceding provinces. If something like this hadn’t happened they very well would have successfully invaded Sardinia and Britain (if they could sneak a stack or two ashore), like they were discussing was their original plan at the end of game banter. Can you imagine if half the coalition had dropped out either of the two times the hug box retook Lithuania and sent the coalition packing?

Also, there was some confusion on terminology, but I agree with the casters. A hug-box is a long-term decent-sized alliance, especially one more held together by sentimentality. A coalition is a decent-sized temporary alliance to take down a common foe that doesn’t usually hold together much after.

Sweden isn’t such a safe victory card for the Kaiser to be honest. It’s far away from his homeland and not defendable by navy alone. Taking land in Scandinavia could also be a risk. As I understand it you lose hegemonies if you lose a war. Attack with a wargoal to take the province and the Kaiser could lose his victory card and hegemony. Not sure if he could just immediately retake it though. Of course Brazil suffers the same weakness (and perhaps more, since the Kaiser could try to overtake his income without war through piracy. That said, maybe if Brazil could convince his allies who are largely out of the running to transfer over their cards...

I had very good reasons for joining. The map being green and red is the way it is for a good reason. When I got attacked alone in 3 separate wars, there was nothing fair about that, in comparison. I didn't say a word. I was betrayed by the only large alliance I had all game; I would've had no problems to join the German alliance ( hello, I'm playing Austria ) due to said betrayal. Instead they wanted to carve me up, they've been doing nothing but killing people one after another instead of being a little more diplomatic.

Yah, you’ve had it really rough. You played nice in the Empire and the Germans betrayed you. You were nice with the Italians and they betrayed you. Even Hungary, who seemed to be your closest ally eventually chose Bohemianwealth over you, and then Milan just devoured your plan B to escape to Greece. Maybe some of these are redeemed now, but surely the Archduke remembers. Also can’t forget the indignities done to Vienna and Constantinople of course.

 

[Drmcdevitt]

I like how nobody mentioned Kaiser inflating his score by building nearly 1000 heavies. I swear each time they showed his military screen the numbers kept going up. Good Job. The battles were fun to watch. I hope the Germans and Commonwealth get some payback at the least attack Kaiser for Scandinavia.
Hungarians keep dreaming about that mandate unless you can get some serious help.
As for the USA, were you not colonizing at all? The provinces north of you had been vacant for the past few sessions. Is it a governing capacity thing maybe because youre a pirate?

 

[C.N.]

Two things that hasn't been speculated over:
- Will there be a military hegemon, or is going for that too risky?
- Will the rest of the German alliance go revolutionary?

Interesting session. I think how close the war is really shows that something like this was needed. The German bloc wasn’t ahead on score, but they were by far the dominant land force (as evidenced by them holding their own against the rest of the world until they were slowly ground down). Even then, they lost way more to rebels than they did to actually ceding provinces. If something like this hadn’t happened they very well would have successfully invaded Sardinia and Britain (if they could sneak a stack or two ashore), like they were discussing was their original plan at the end of game banter. Can you imagine if half the coalition had dropped out either of the two times the hug box retook Lithuania and sent the coalition packing?

Also, there was some confusion on terminology, but I agree with the casters. A hug-box is a long-term decent-sized alliance, especially one more held together by sentimentality. A coalition is a decent-sized temporary alliance to take down a common foe that doesn’t usually hold together much after.

Sweden isn’t such a safe victory card for the Kaiser to be honest. It’s far away from his homeland and not defendable by navy alone. Taking land in Scandinavia could also be a risk. As I understand it you lose hegemonies if you lose a war. Attack with a wargoal to take the province and the Kaiser could lose his victory card and hegemony. Not sure if he could just immediately retake it though. Of course Brazil suffers the same weakness (and perhaps more, since the Kaiser could try to overtake his income without war through piracy. That said, maybe if Brazil could convince his allies who are largely out of the running to transfer over their cards...

While I agree on most that you have said, it seems like you forget that Japan and Brazil are allies, and more likely to watch each others backs to make sure both stays in the top three than fighting over the first place.

 

[aqvamare]

And with benin, both, japan and brazil have a shared common enemy.
Japan needs province from benin, brazil needs provinces from benin.

 

[Runite Drill]

And with benin, both, japan and brazil have a shared common enemy.
Japan needs province from benin, brazil needs provinces from benin.

Don't discount @Da9L; coalition vs Japan incoming.

 

[aqvamare]

Don't discount @Da9L; coalition vs Japan incoming.

For coaltion vs Japan, it is to late, he has 1650 ship limits, and over 1000 heavies build.

If it would be me in multiplayer at this point, me simply would carpet blockade all harbors, add +1000 light ships to my fleet, and start to pirate.

And a 100 transport ship with 100 infantery merc stack, for instant sieges on weak spots all over the world.
(merc stacks, because you want to burn money and not manpower when you force attack a fort)

A late game nation can easily go two times over naval force limit, if you are navy heavy.

Japan fleet setup for all out war vs world:

Fleet limit, 1650
+1400 heavies
+1600 light ships (put them in all rich trade nodes on piraty -> seville would be my first target, 600 light ships and criple brazil, +150 heavies who protect them, than 150 light ships in all other end nodes, ant it pay all your fleet)
--> you can get rougly 50% of the trade wealth from all nodes as income this way.
+100 transport ships -> +100 inf, simply for hit and run sieges along world coast line.

 

[Avalanchemike]

Was it a local threat? Certainly, as are any stronger neighbours. But local army power isn't everything.

North America and Ming China are hardly local to Prussia or the Commonwealth. The Germanwealth Bloc has immense strength and has demonstrated on numerous occasions that it would happily project that in any theatre in the world. They've fought on nearly every continent except SA (no, you do not count Groogy, sorry). This is the bloc which is responsible for killing or relocating more player-nations than any other group currently in the game AND having not suffered any serious defeats in any of the wars they've engaged in. Moreover they've engaged in hostilities in one way or another with almost every other bloc or unaligned nation left in the game OR could pose a serious threat to the victory chances of those who don't qualify for the former. The only real exception that comes to mind are the Hussite NAers who've already justified their involvement afterwards with "it was supposed to keep Mexico off our back."

Given how evenly this war fared until attrition won out, I think it's reasonable for any of the remaining nations or blocs to look at the Germanwealth before this and say "Can we beat them alone?" For instance, if they decided they did not like how high the score was for Delhi was and to take on the Indian Duopoly does anyone really doubt who'd have won? It might have been an even fight in terms of numbers between the Germans and the Indians - and while I'm sure the Indians would have made them bleed for it - I really don't think the Germans lose, particularly if they find a sympathetic neighbour(s) to join in. Now maybe that's not something that would have happened this session, but who is to say what would have happened next session after Britain or the Italians or the Neo-Iberians whichever the next target of the Germanwealth was this session were to lose? If we accept the premise that the Germans win any even fight and they've proven to be cowboys on an international scale what stops then from doing to India, Brazil or any nation what they did to Ming?

I'm saying this as someone who was rooting for your bloc in this war: you absolutely were the threat that others perceived you to be. I know that in the immediate aftermath of that session it's going to leave you feeling sour but take it as a compliment. The world needed to join together against you and even then it took nearly 25 years for them to grind you guys down. That's astounding. I'm looking forward to seeing how you guys bounce back!