You know, after this, I NEVER want to see Bratyn playing again. You lost mate, shake the other players hand and get over it, don't be a bad sport and try to mess up other players games by being an asshole over and over. Just disgraceful sportsmanship.
EU4 Dev Clash #10 - Rule Britannia - Tuesdays 15:00 CET
- Thread starter Groogy
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You are unfair with him. He knows how to accept a defeat ; see his attitude when he was destroyed as Bahmanis in the Mandate of Heaven dev clash. The situation here is different, at least from his point of view : as far as I understand, he is not upset for being defeated, but for being so alone whereas he was trying to save everyone from the danger n°1 (according to him).
Also, remember Groogy's reaction in the Rights of Man dev clash : http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...ayer-campaign-vi.965679/page-46#post-22038014
Despite of that, Groogy's attitude is just fine now when he loose (and always entertaining whatsoever).
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The people cheering for Kaiser Johan are the same people who cheered for the Empire in Star Wars
Guilty
Bratyn did slow things down for KaiserJohan with nothing left in it for himself. But I think the rest of the world will be shocking with their ungratefulness
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Looooong time lurker, first time poster. Wanted to contribute some Fan-Facts! EDIT: Changed image link (found misspellings)!
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Hmm... I'm wondering will Persia backstab Caesar, which will be quite fun. After submitting to the Rome, Persia is free to expand in nearby region and can potentially get to India, it is really a smart move for him to ally with the mighty KJ to build up his strength first, but for how long will this friendship last?
And sooner or later, Hungary/Byzantium might have Victory Cards on each other as well...
But, if all his subjects/allies remain loyal, KJ is won (which is boring). He now might have high autonomy and insufficient states, yet his economy will be further strengthened after eating Egypt. Wish there will be more brave men fighting like Kazan.
And sooner or later, Hungary/Byzantium might have Victory Cards on each other as well...
But, if all his subjects/allies remain loyal, KJ is won (which is boring
). He now might have high autonomy and insufficient states, yet his economy will be further strengthened after eating Egypt. Wish there will be more brave men fighting like Kazan.
Absolutely brilliant
Though, I do have to correct you on two points; Byzantium, not Kazan, started the first war, and the Kazani army did indeed see battle; being resoundingly defeated at the hands of the Byzantines in Northern Poland, and thereby precipitating Kazan's unconditional surrender, as the last possible means still at its disposal to protect its faithful allies.
Could there be a change in the unconditionally surrender community rules in the next dev clash? If someone surrenders a peace has to be negotiated within a year (or any arbitrary time frame really)? This would reduce the number of proxy wars declared on one party with the intention of gutting another country?
A lighter hand approach could be to increase the war exhaustion increase malice due to sitting on an unconditionally surrender to a crippling amount.
Edit: Formatting
A lighter hand approach could be to increase the war exhaustion increase malice due to sitting on an unconditionally surrender to a crippling amount.
Edit: Formatting
Absolutely brilliant
Though, I do have to correct you on two points; Byzantium started the first war, and the Kazani army did indeed see battle; being resoundingly defeated at the hands of the Byzantines in Northern Poland, and thereby precipitating Kazan's unconditional surrender.
Naah, as always in history -The Kaiser(or whatever German term the leader pick) simply responded to the polish fire and fought a brave defensive war!
I don't think I'm unfair with him at all? If someone is being a bad sportsman, you should be able to call them out on it. I don't think anyone should support this kind of playing. He has nothing to gain, admits that he's going to lose and just wants to hurt others by being spiteful. That's not the kind of person that should be playing the game.
Just because he was okay at losing before, and Groogy wasn't a good loser before, doesn't excuse him for being a shitty loser now.
Like truce break once, sure makes sense, you're gonna lose 100% but whatever. But the second time? It's just shitty sportsmanship. At that point, he's just trying to ruin someone's game and doing it very personally, because HIS alliance failed him. He attacked and lost the first time, so now he's just having a tantrum?
Like I said, call a spade a spade. If someone is being a dick to other players out of spite, with nothing to gain from it and only to hurt people and has already resigned to losing, that is bad sportsmanship.
Absolutely brilliant
Though, I do have to correct you on two points; Byzantium, not Kazan, started the first war, and the Kazani army did indeed see battle; being resoundingly defeated at the hands of the Byzantines in Northern Poland, and thereby precipitating Kazan's unconditional surrender, as the last possible means still at its disposal to protect its faithful allies.
Many thanks! I'm a huge fan and I love your aggression/diplomacy. I missed that battle and forgot that Byz launched the first war. In the name of accuracy, sounds like we need to mention the last resort resumption of hostilities after the large-hearted Caesar begged and pleaded for peace and cooperation under his benevolent rule.
Nothing but the fan-facts here!(PS. Please go to ming and wreck havoc.)
Yes, everyone told them that they should unite and stop Byzantium expansion. It is not a question of should but of would and could. Even if suddenly they overcome mutual mistrust, political differences (France and Austria are natural enemies), communication issues and everything else, they may still lose. Sure, allies would have the numbers and StarNaN’s military mind and no doubt it would be an amazing war, but if they are going to be picked apart one by one and forced to white peace, I don’t see another coalition forming. On the other hand, if they decide to pass the next session and just let Byzantium eat Italy, it would be even harder to fight next time and so forth.
I believe that in 3 vs 3 fight between Austria/Bohemia/Papal States and Byzantium/Hungary/Aragon, the latter party is going to win handily. As time would go forward, it would get more and more one-sided, especially if Austria lets the Papal State to be eaten. What’s also important is that Austria did not bother with anything beyond gunboat diplomacy in this campaign and Western parties may as well just abandon it to its fate.
Persia has nothing to gain and everything to lose by backstabbing Byzantium at this point. They have naturally different avenues of expansion and secure border between them is already enough to give trouble to both Europe and India, no need to call each other into wars. Even in the extremely unlikely event of Persia betraying Byzantium and winning, he is only going to get a handful of provinces while the revenge would result in total annihilation of his country. No, this alliance is secure.
At this point in time Sweden is not yet in position to try anything adventurous. Even joining the coalition may not be the best choice because he would be one of the most isolated and vulnerable parties to endure Byzantium’s revenge, like Kazan. Sweden may try something after it gets more free land, now that Norway and Russia are free for grabs, but as of now it is more like a dark horse than an obvious contender for victory.
Western powers are in a very precarious position right now and have to do something fast. If they won’t help Austria and let it be beaten, Byzantium would grow too strong to be contained. Even with their western troops, ideas and fleet they would have nothing on Byzantium’s skill and accumulated strength. If they do choose to help Austria, they would have to drastically change their behavior and work for victory while also avoiding strengthening of Austria. This would require them to show impressive diplomatic and military skills. I’d really want to see aggressive and big picture-oriented France and Spain, that’s what I argued for in my original post, but as of now their showings are not that good.
Based on the above I make a conclusion that if the players are going to continue to play as they do now and won’t really change anything, Byzantium is going to win. Which was the reason for my post.
Here's a contribution to the fan-facts, Dagoth Johan. Hopefully any Morrowind fans will get the reference. (Seems like I've got it to show now)
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Bratyn had exactly two real options this session.
1. Wait meekly to die
2. Actually slow Johan 2.0 down
I find it very difficult to blame him for not waiting meekly to die.
It isn't about spite, it's about ensuring that there's at least some chance the rest of the world can eventually resist Johan 2.0. Speaking for myself at least, it wouldn't be very fun to keep watching the MP if Johan 2.0's victory was simply inevitable. Bratyn's efforts staves off that point a bit further.
As best as I can tell from talking to Bratyn, he admires Johan 2.0's skill at the game. Doesn't mean he should be willing to just roll over and die meekly.
Don't underestimate the Western Hugbox, they have two countries that are almost equal to Byz in income and France by itself can match Byz numbers, never mind Spain and England. Also they are getting the colonial lands online that will be sending more and more money back into Western Europe and they have a clear expansion path into Africa for Spain. A move down the coast to visit Nutsoman in Mali and sieze province there as well. England can project force into the Scandanavian regions for additional pickups and France needs to munch more into the HRE area but they should be able to keep up and pass Byz in dev growth next session. As long as they can do that it favors the Western powers.
If Byzantium attacks Starnan then the Western Powers can reinforce, or they can take their piece of flesh as well and they should be able to take more by spreading AE over multiple countries (England, Spain, France and Holland)
If Byzantium attacks Starnan then the Western Powers can reinforce, or they can take their piece of flesh as well and they should be able to take more by spreading AE over multiple countries (England, Spain, France and Holland)
Looooong time lurker, first time poster. Wanted to contribute some Fan-Facts! EDIT: Changed image link (found misspellings)!
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Finally some non-biased news! You have Caesars seal of approval!
I do not read his movement as you do. You say "personal revenge", I see a strategy to slow down the big (bad?) boy. Nothing more.
In fact, I see it as the exact opposite of "doing it very personally". Instead of leaving the clash and crying, he is playing until the end the game he think better in the whole world's balance interest.
Claiming "That's not the kind of person that should be playing the game", isn't it too harsh ? Maybe you are not the kind of person that should be commenting the game, if you are so upset by such an attitude (unlike the whole dev team, for whom this seems perfectly fine).
Just to say, I am not against KJ here, at all. I wish his Byzantium will survive and shine until the end. But Bratyn's attitude seems perfectly justified, strategically and emotionally.
What are you talking about lol? I wanted Bratyn to lose, not directly, but as I want Kaiser to win, it just follows that Bratyn had to die, but he showed up with Chris and Daniel and was a good sport about the whole thing.
Oh, and I was worried about Johan taking over GB, but I shouldn't have been, he did NOTHING lol
Nah man, I agree with you completely, never give up and wait to die.
But there's a way to go about it. Use diplomacy, get others on your side to help you, or keep fighting even though you KNOW you will lose. What, he's trying to make himself into a martyr while complaining in chat every 5 minutes and truce breaking multiple times? Noone's gonna listen to that. And it's gotten to the point that it shows him being a poor sport about losing. His coalition lost the first war, so what's he do? Keep attacking by himself even though he will lose. That's not fun for him or KJ and it just makes him look childish, like a kid having a tantrum and trying to ruin someone's game who fairly beat him and many other players.
Instead he's staying in it, at least in this episode, and crying constantly, in game and post game, for over a week.
Too harsh? Why is it too harsh?
I agree, his attitude IS justified, he wants to bring the attention of the other players to the threat of KJ. But the thing is, the other players KNOW of the threat already, many of them tried to fight it and lost, it's not an unknown to other players. What good does it serve to constantly attack someone and try to ruin their fun just because OTHER players didn't listen to him?
Like I said, there's a way to go about things, and this just felt totally childish.
In-game was he a good sport? Up to the current episode on YT, he was not. Post game last week with the constant crying 'i told you so i told you so' after he got defeated, is that being a good sport?
Typically Ottomans/Byzantines lose supremacy around the mid-game as ideas, development and colonies start to benefit the west. The only way that KJ can maintain his supremacy is by blobbing unchecked. If Starnan acts now, then his efforts will pay off exponentially by removing Byzantium from his position as an unrivaled contender. It's up to France to be part of the process to ensure that a Byzantine defeat doesn't become a Byzantinsplosion. That way KJ is still around to check Austrian aggression.
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