EU4 Dev Clash #10 - Rule Britannia - Tuesdays 15:00 CET

EU4 Dev Clash #10 - Rule Britannia - Tuesdays 15:00 CET

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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

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bigaristotel

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I want to give mad props to Kaiser Johan. After last dev clash I was somewhat skeptical. Yes, he was awesome in gobbling up Europe but it was largely a SP. And in wars against Turks he lost a good number of battles despite freaking space marines. But now I've truly appreciate the skillz
 

Tripodeu

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Probably should've drew Hungary on the other side, oh well.
aevCJNT.png
 

Leron

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Mistakes were made... many mistakes. Papa Stalin would not be proud since it seems that quantity didn't delivery enough quality in itself:p some countries did not feel threatened enough to give their all, some joined only cuz of obligation. While there were many no one felt urge to destroy Biz. For a prove let's look how fast this coalition fall apart... All the wait for Entente troops and then Mamluks didn't help either. CB could also be a bit easier to coordinate. One big strong country will always find a few armies to dismantle.

Since i have no insight in backstage talks it's hard to say why it ended that way, but this coalition seems to be "worst case" scenario. Any other possibility like Kazan, Mamluks, QQ, Pope from the start of session or Kazan, PLCH, Austria would be better. In the end can't see any powerful coalitions next session. Entente and Austria + Pope gonna start look suspiciously at each other. Mamluks and QQ gonna be finished, and PLCH + Kazan is not enough. That is if Johan, the real Johan won't pull his magic: " I will subsidies anyone who attacks Byzantium " ;)
 

earlofbrigand

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The developers are running scared of Siu-King and Marco Antonio.

Both theoretically can enter the fray as OPMs and crush Johan’s Russia.
 

bigaristotel

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I will repeat myself but not enough attention are paid to the Indians. Europe is all fun, but if no one challenges Indians (I don't believe in Groogy, sorry) then they will become major powers in the next 2-3 sessions
 

NimitzOfStars

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Well as players get eliminated they will be moved further East to pick up countries so you could see another one or two in india, maybe bengal or athylan. But yeah dividing India in two is a lot of dev and all those gems and other very nice trade goods as well.
 

Heradite

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I will repeat myself but not enough attention are paid to the Indians. Europe is all fun, but if no one challenges Indians (I don't believe in Groogy, sorry) then they will become major powers in the next 2-3 sessions

They may be major powers but they only get half of their points they earn.
 

Sfan

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I just finished watching it, and the whole session was a mess. I think almost everyone took the right decisions except KJ, but in the end it benefitted him because of the execution.

Imo, KaiserJohan should not have engaged Mamluks and QQ. This drew far too much attention on him. I think it would have been far better if he layed low a bit more, and expanded just against AIs for one session to draw attention to someone else, like Starnan expanding safely or the disgusting western alliance: it's far easier to make deals when you are the strongest but don't look the strongest. After he 1v2ed QQ and Mamluks, everyone was afraid, and it makes sense that almost everyone declared. Still a lot to learn to become wiz.
That was super fun, and he brought the fight, but that was definitely not the best way to play it.

From there, something had to be done, and I agree with the person who said that Bratyn had the less to gain from it, but still had to carry the weight of it because noone had the courage to declare. He was right in all regards, PLC was right to join, the Western alliance was right to join because with a dead Byz they were the uncontested leaders.
A case can be made for Denmark, but why not, it's nice to keep good allies. If I played Denmark, I think I would have sided with Byzantium to expand in Poland, Muscovy and Kazan, that seems a far better chance of getting a trophy than their current situation where they're boxed in. That's the decision Sweden made, and I guess it's what prevented Denmark from doing it too, but I still think it was better to aim for a control of the Baltic as Denmark by taking TO and LO for themselves instead of letting PLC seize them.
I said Denmark should have joined to get a trophy, same goes for Hungary or Sweden, siding with Byz will help them to get closer to the top. Without Byz, they'd be nothing relevant; the victory of Byz offers them valuable expansion in players.
The situation is different for Austria. Austria starts stronger, and Starnan has more ambition. If he sided with the coalition, he would have made the western hugbox the undisputed number one. If he joined Byzantium, he would have always been the second member of the team, and Starnan does not make hugboxes to get second place. So I think doing nothing and expanding in AIs was his best move. Everyone got weakened, got debt, battered armies, delayed expansion. During this time, he's getting stronger.

All said and done, everyone took the right decision, but it failed. I won't comment the mechanical mistakes, they were numerous but understandable. And yes, Anatolian early game is way too strong. That doesn't mean everything, and lack of coordination doesn't explain it all either (no idea what France is doing with their mil power for instance, they're France and they can't fill their ideas). But that's fine, not everyone is equal in skill, and you can't ask someone to play better when at least they take the right decision.



It leaves four major players contending for a trophy as it stands right now, imo.

The West has shown weaknesses, but as many people said, their unit will become better and they still face no real threat. France however was delayed, probably spent tons of money to rebuild their armies and was just set back. They're now locked, Austria expanded in most of the land they could have taken if they did not eat the coalition war of Holland and the failed colaition against Byz. I count France out for the moment, but England was untouched because they played it the English way, and Castile is eating Aragon and Morocco without anyone caring about it. England and Castile are still two of my main contenders.
Else, Starnan has played it really well, he keeps on gaining super good provinces in complete indifference of everyone. He has three excellent allies with the Pope, Bohemia and Hungary. If they all keep on expanding, they can be a real threat to the west, especially given that the other players have shown weaknesses.
Finally, and obviously, Kaiser Johan. I'm curious at what will people do. They won't abandon him the victory, so will an even bigger coalition form? A case can be made for Starnan joining it this time, he used that session to outgrow France, so if he joins next time it won't give the west free reign. I still think he can't join with KJ even if that would be awesome, it would give Byzantium too much expansion paths. At the same time his alliance with Hungary is precious.
PLC also showed their weakness, Kazan is a horde, everyone else is small and boxed in, or has halved points. It is really between these four as it stands right now, but it will depend on what happens.

Maybe a new coalition, maybe not. No matter what happens, I'd like to see Hungary carry the fight. Call in Byzantium and Austria, maybe Sweden and Bohemia too, and partition that Poland. That would be a powerplay.
 
Last edited:

Viperswhip

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K, avoided this thread all day so no spoilers. Kaiser Johan! I think I love you!

That was masterful.

Starnan, what the heck? You could have speared France right through the heart, ZERO men, Castile, ZERO men, England, who cares. Starnan, make a pact with Kaiser, and then fight for #1 last session.
 

OldmansHQ

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What a session! I don’t think I’ve gotten this excited over watching a game since Brood War OSL. I was fish-screaming at the screen when France got stackwiped during the ultimate coalition war. But what made it so good was the meta happenings. There is so much to be discussed. They white peaced - but not really.

It’s almost 6am, I gotta take nap, but I will come back later to share more specific thoughts.
 

DarkBlue

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Ave Caesar!
He's doing so well in the 1st coalition war, but that might bring him more coalitions in the long run. Let's see if he can fend them off and restore the glory of Rome. ;)
 

ja3ko

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I think Byzantium's position is a bit more precarious than a lot of people seem to realise. As has been pointed out in this thread mid to late game the Anatolian troops drop behind western and once everyone else (cough... France... cough) catches up on ideas they won't have troop superiority. Otto ideas are good but their no Prussia as we saw last season they tend to start strong and finish weak. That coalition should have knocked the KJ back a step, wouldn't have ruined him since he is way too large to one shot, but the defeat for the grand coalition was mainly down to poor co-ordination and cb choice. The biggest reason for the defeat in my opinion is that in no battle did the coalition actually get all troops into the battle.

The first big battle: Castille, Kazan, France (100k) vs Byz (64), reinforcements were drip fed into this battle (the old adage about never reinforce defeat comes to mind) letting the already superior byzantine troops do extra damage KJ himself posted about the importance of a complete frontline at the start of combat.
then hungary beat up on an outnumbered isolated poland (and norway) while KJ threw back the isolated Mamelukes.
KJ ate the french armies due to poor coordination amongst the entente and then beat up the Mamelukes some more
the second big battle was Kazan, Castille, Poland, Denmark and Lithuania vs Byz and Hun with roughly even numbers but the byz side had superior discipline, morale, unit pips, cannon, professionalism and general.

A better coordinated (though trying to co-ordinate 8 players is no small feat, props to Bratyn for what he did achieve on the fly mid session) and more determined coalition could still halt the kaisers advance and in the long term once byz hits its state cap the other (surviving) countries will be able to close the gap on their effective development which is good news for the western entente if it holds together but small comfort for the east.

I wouldn't rule out bratyn just yet either if he has a strong diplomatic game during the coming week he may be able to hang in there making it too expensive for KJ to come after him or even organise a better planned coalition however the already big target the KJ would have on bratyn just got bigger due to him being the only player close by capable and willing to organising real resistance. Though i think this week was gg for pizzacato/dnote and r_lazer.

I'm really interested to see how the HRE block develops diplomatically starnan is in the strongest position his ever had with lots of options open to him and no immediate threats.
 

Kay2Why

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Duplo is in strong position and should start his powerplay on Denmark or he'll be left behind.
 

KaiserJohan

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A case can be made for Denmark, but why not, it's nice to keep good allies. If I played Denmark, I think I would have sided with Byzantium to expand in Poland, Muscovy and Kazan, that seems a far better chance of getting a trophy than their current situation where they're boxed in. That's the decision Sweden made, and I guess it's what prevented Denmark from doing it too, but I still think it was better to aim for a control of the Baltic as Denmark...

Sweden made no such decision but instead was stabbed in the back by Denmark and PLC and then sent an alliance offer to me desperation.
Bratyn then tried to threaten me into dropping the alliance with Sweden so they could hugbox him to death. Shameful.

Rome will not stand for this.
 

Dominion

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I'm just glad Hungary did so well :)

They're usually the butt of all jokes in SP with only Poland being worse and I haven't seen them succeed much in MP either. Great job !
 

BjornB

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To be perfectly honest, the great people of Lithuania severely underestimated the Byzantine strength. I honestly thought that my participation wasn't vital, but more of a backup. I prioritized my rebels to not lose the gains made, already lagging behind economically and technologically, or LO would probably have broken free much like TO did. I was not prepared to give up this for a war which would only have weakened Byz, not strenghtened me. Rather the opposite if LO broke free because of it.

Still thought we'd win though, and leaving a stack sieging a fort in Crimea was a result of my vast underestimation and a huge mistake obviously.

I have a pretty weak economy, no room to expand and couldn't let LO break free to be taken by SWE, low manpower so I had to make sure I could squash rebels as swiftly as possible. Breaking my alliance with Sweden was a choice because I've been talking to Carsten, and it seemed apparent to me that he wanted me for a friend until he could get space marines and then eat me :/

I'm not in a Stellar position at this time, but we'll see how things pan out. Maybe I'm allowed to survive. I gambled on the wrong horse this time, and I severely underestimated the stallion I thought to be a donkey :p

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I'm not good at playing EU4 without a pause button :)
 

KaiserJohan

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To be perfectly honest, the great people of Lithuania severely underestimated the Byzantine strength. I honestly thought that my participation wasn't vital, but more of a backup. I prioritized my rebels to not lose the gains made, already lagging behind economically and technologically, or LO would probably have broken free much like TO did. I was not prepared to give up this for a war which would only have weakened Byz, not strenghtened me. Rather the opposite if LO broke free because of it.

Still thought we'd win though, and leaving a stack sieging a fort in Crimea was a result of my vast underestimation and a huge mistake obviously.

I have a pretty weak economy, no room to expand and couldn't let LO break free to be taken by SWE, low manpower so I had to make sure I could squash rebels as swiftly as possible. Breaking my alliance with Sweden was a choice because I've been talking to Carsten, and it seemed apparent to me that he wanted me for a friend until he could get space marines and then eat me :/

I'm not in a Stellar position at this time, but we'll see how things pan out. Maybe I'm allowed to survive. I gambled on the wrong horse this time, and I severely underestimated the stallion I thought to be a donkey :p

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I'm not good at playing EU4 without a pause button :)

Rome has no ill feelings against either Poland or Lithuania. She understands they were not the instigators behind the coalition.
 

cuendillar

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To be perfectly honest, the great people of Lithuania severely underestimated the Byzantine strength. I honestly thought that my participation wasn't vital, but more of a backup. I prioritized my rebels to not lose the gains made, already lagging behind economically and technologically, or LO would probably have broken free much like TO did. I was not prepared to give up this for a war which would only have weakened Byz, not strenghtened me. Rather the opposite if LO broke free because of it.

Still thought we'd win though, and leaving a stack sieging a fort in Crimea was a result of my vast underestimation and a huge mistake obviously.

I have a pretty weak economy, no room to expand and couldn't let LO break free to be taken by SWE, low manpower so I had to make sure I could squash rebels as swiftly as possible. Breaking my alliance with Sweden was a choice because I've been talking to Carsten, and it seemed apparent to me that he wanted me for a friend until he could get space marines and then eat me :/

I'm not in a Stellar position at this time, but we'll see how things pan out. Maybe I'm allowed to survive. I gambled on the wrong horse this time, and I severely underestimated the stallion I thought to be a donkey :p

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I'm not good at playing EU4 without a pause button :)

Did you ever consider holding Livonia as a vassal/march? 5% discipline in first NI and Prussian culture isn't too bad. You can't get full use from their provinces yourself until you've become an empire/cultural union anyway. They tend to lose their cores when annexed though, were Livonian Separatists even possible?
 

king cnut

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The coalition might have been best served just to keep the threat of war on the table by Spain and France stationing some troops in kazan territory, within sight of the Turks. In hindsight, this probably would have been a more effective means of delaying him whilst people caught up in ideas and manpower.

Out of interest, what ideas has everyone taken and why has France only got two? Having defensive ideas complete seems to be a major boon for the Kaiser right now.