EU4 - Art of War - Dev Diary 7 - Religious Leagues, The Reformation and the Near East

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Golladan

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New trade node in Aleppo.

Does anyone have a source that explains why Hedjaz is still independent?

attachment.php

National Monuments Pack III confirmed!!
Not. That building is already confirmed to represent a center of the Reformation.
 

volseraph

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Is it possible to wipe out Protestantism entirely by stamping out its center of reformation quickly enough? Can protestantism spread if it still has provinces, but no remaining centers of reformation?

Relatedly, should the Protestants manage to win the League Wars and then Protestantism is entirely eliminated, what happens to the Empire?
 

lucaluca

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The HRE was weakening during this period, definitely. I've always found it odd how there's an inexorable strengthening of the HRE over this period in EUIV, rather than a devolution of its power over time, as happened historically.

In a way, I wish there were three major tracks to take the HRE down:

1) Religiously intolerant, diplomatically or forcibly bringing heretics back to the fold, becoming internally more centralized under the Emperor amongst adherents. -- This is the state of the HRE pre-Augsburg.

2) Religiously biased, trying to keep Catholicism dominant, but allowing Protestant/Reformed to exist within member states, or shedding intolerant unrepentant princes that wanted full religious freedom. -- This is the state of the HRE post-Augsburg.

3) Religiously tolerant, showing no favoritism at the state level, keeping its borders and member states, yet becoming increasingly decentralized, all at the cost of alienating the Pope and those nations (Protestant or Catholic) who wanted to be raving zealots. -- It would be an "alternate" history choice if you adopted this early in the 16th Century. This is ideally/arguably the state of the HRE post-Westphalia, though there was still much bitterness and distrust, and more the de facto case post-Enlightenment.

These major courses of steering the HRE were the actual choice Emperors were faced with historically. The failure of the Edict of Worms, and the Peaces of Augsburg and Westphalia showed that, over time, it was harder and harder for any Emperor to unilaterally enforce his views on the Empire as a whole. So the question is: how do we keep the Empire together when it is religiously heterodox?

It also raises the entire question of the HRE itself. After all the Schmalkaldic League was an alternative to the HRE proposed by the Protestant princes of the 16th Century. It also admitted reformed Denmark to its ranks.

I would hope a Thirty Years War scenario might allow for the formation of more than just a temporary coalition. The Schmalkaldic League should be a formable confederate state of Protestant/Reformed nations, with a lot of the same rules as the HRE* with Electors, etc. -- but for Protestant/Reformed nations. Member states needed to contribute forces -- historically, 10,000 infantry and 2,000 cavalry -- for a standing army. It existed from 1531 - 1555. It only devolved back into its separate states which resumed infeudation under the HRE because of guarantees they were given by the Peace of Augsburg.

The Confederation of the Rhine (1806-1813), and the German Confederation (1815-1848) further show there were alternate desires to form a united "Germany" apart from, or if Austria had gotten its way under Metternich, as an extension to, the HRE.

Right now, again, color me underwhelmed at this representation of the Thirty Years War. I remain hopeful in the long run to see Paradox truly give meaning and depth to the entire Reformation/Counter-Reformation/Enlightenment evolution of Europe.

But... this dev diary was not what I was looking for.

* Generally, I also believe there needs to be ways to have more "Empire"-like structures in the game than just the HRE. Confederations like the Hansa or the Schmalkaldic League, even player-defined delineation of separate territories inside large sprawling blobs, etc.

I think you're asking for too much complexity now... it's game that represents history loosesly, it cannot represent every option and events. I think this mechianic is ok for now
 

Niebulheim

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Right now, again, color me underwhelmed at this representation of the Thirty Years War.

It doesn't feel like it's supposed to be a representation of the Thirty Years War. It's more like a representation of nearly all the religious struggles between Catholics and Protestants with the Thirty Years War as a template.

What you're asking for sounds too convoluted to implement, especially for new players.
 

matk

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No, I understand it perfectly, and I agree with everything you have to say.

As for Gallileo, it was more of a battle between hubris and "needs proof" instead of science and religion. The problem the Vatican had with Gallileo's theory was he didn't have the proper proof to back up his claims (because the instruments required to do so weren't invented yet), and they didn't want to endorse anything that was still disputable.

Of course, Gallileo didn't help his case when he claimed that his theory was accurate beyond a doubt by leaving out the disclaimer that the Pope requested he put in his book, and then made things worse by antagonizing the Pope specifically via satire.

The comment wasn't directed specifically at you - some people on an EUIII discussion claimed they were the same thing and I wanted to head that potential flame war off at the pass.


Back to the dev diary: my continuing question is WHEN? AoW looks to be a solid step forward for EUIV. Plus, I can't wait for how the community modders will take this and improve it further.
 

Grand Historian

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The Confederation of the Rhine (1806-1813), and the German Confederation (1815-1848) further show there were alternate desires to form a united "Germany" apart from, or if Austria had gotten its way under Metternich, as an extension to, the HRE.

Right now, again, color me underwhelmed at this representation of the Thirty Years War. I remain hopeful in the long run to see Paradox truly give meaning and depth to the entire Reformation/Counter-Reformation/Enlightenment evolution of Europe.

But... this dev diary was not what I was looking for.

The Confederation of the Rhine was a puppet state created by Napoleon in an attempt to deprive Austria of German Hegemony, not create a German state in the sense of modern Germany.

And do keep in mind Paradox works in steps. While you may be underwhelmed, this is still another step forward for Paradox, and I for one am grateful that they are adding in some form of representation of it. Considering what they're doing to the curia in this expansion, I'm sure they'll expand the Thirty Year War in another.
 

loup99

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Great map changes! This patch is looking better and better (the DLC too, but less).


Completely wrong and entirely unfounded. Has been disconfirmed.
 

Wizzington

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It doesn't feel like it's supposed to be a representation of the Thirty Years War. It's more like a representation of nearly all the religious struggles between Catholics and Protestants with the Thirty Years War as a template.

Essentially yes. We have to abstract/compress history a bit because any other attempt to represent the hundred years of religious conflict leading up to Westphalia would necessitate unworkable levels of railroading.
 

Grand Historian

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ok, now that Canomer is in charge of drawing the middle east, this expansion is officially going to be the best one ever.

Now all we need is Dorimi to redraw the Balkans and it will be complete (minus Japan).
 

PeterCorless

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I think you're asking for too much complexity now... it's game that represents history loosesly, it cannot represent every option and events. I think this mechianic is ok for now

I don't think it is asking too much, actually. Modders have been asking for access to the ability to make more HRE-like structures for their mods. So that's been on the table for a while.

The idea of having three ways to steer the Empire - intolerant, biased, and tolerant - should not be all that difficult to do. Historically, different Emperors took those strategic political choices over time. Indeed, *kings* and princes should be able to make the same choices within their nations. You could have biased Protestant Henry VIII, intolerant Bloody Mary, tolerant Elizabeth, and so on.

Each time you have a new ruler, nations should be given a choice as to how their new regime will treat their religious minorities. You could also make changes over the life of a sovereign, but face some minor blowback when you change your mind.

This is precisely the sort of strategic decision-making the game lacks presently, and it's precisely why the Reformation often feels like no more than some random province flips, and then followed by shifting your country to "whatever gets the most plusses."

It also leaves out Orthodox faith and other Christian sects entirely, for some reason. Given player proclivities, the game's propensity to flip small HRE nations to Orthodox under some strange conditions, and the capability to support alternate history such as a resurgent Byzantine state, why can't the game support Orthodox nations as part of the HRE structure? Would they side with the Emperor, or the Protestants?

Even apart from having separate formable nations like the Schmalkaldic League, the current set-up presumes a simple dualism to the Reformation which didn't exist historically.

It leaves me begging for a more robust design.
 

lucaluca

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I don't think it is asking too much, actually. Modders have been asking for access to the ability to make more HRE-like structures for their mods. So that's been on the table for a while.

The idea of having three ways to steer the Empire - intolerant, biased, and tolerant - should not be all that difficult to do. Historically, different Emperors took those strategic political choices over time. Indeed, *kings* and princes should be able to make the same choices within their nations. You could have biased Protestant Henry VIII, intolerant Bloody Mary, tolerant Elizabeth, and so on.

Each time you have a new ruler, nations should be given a choice as to how their new regime will treat their religious minorities. You could also make changes over the life of a sovereign, but face some minor blowback when you change your mind.

This is precisely the sort of strategic decision-making the game lacks presently, and it's precisely why the Reformation often feels like no more than some random province flips, and then followed by shifting your country to "whatever gets the most plusses."

It also leaves out Orthodox faith and other Christian sects entirely, for some reason. Given player proclivities, the game's propensity to flip small HRE nations to Orthodox under some strange conditions, and the capability to support alternate history such as a resurgent Byzantine state, why can't the game support Orthodox nations as part of the HRE structure? Would they side with the Emperor, or the Protestants?

Even apart from having separate formable nations like the Schmalkaldic League, the current set-up presumes a simple dualism to the Reformation which didn't exist historically.

It leaves me begging for a more robust design.

dealing with internal minoroties and groups is part of internal management that most players are aksing for, so hopefully next DLC
 

oblio-

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Is it possible to wipe out Protestantism entirely by stamping out its center of reformation quickly enough? Can protestantism spread if it still has provinces, but no remaining centers of reformation?
Stamp out centers of reformation how? The provinces will probably have Religious Zeal for 20+ years (probably more), ensuring that no amount of missionary strength will convert them. If you conquer them they'll still be spreading Protestantism in your country :)
 

jockedahl

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What happens if an outside power declares war on a small protestant hre member while the protestants are fighting the catholics. It seems like this mechanic will greatly help outsiders and keep austria weak on manpower. I forsee outside powers conquering large parts of a weakened HRE. As it is currently the HRE is always weak against outsiders.
 

Niebulheim

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I don't think it is asking too much, actually. Modders have been asking for access to the ability to make more HRE-like structures for their mods. So that's been on the table for a while.

The idea of having three ways to steer the Empire - intolerant, biased, and tolerant - should not be all that difficult to do. Historically, different Emperors took those strategic political choices over time. Indeed, *kings* and princes should be able to make the same choices within their nations. You could have biased Protestant Henry VIII, intolerant Bloody Mary, tolerant Elizabeth, and so on.

I agree that those things sound fun in a mod but I don't think they fit well in the base game.

All of the points you've made in this thread are very good and well reasoned, but it is also a question of how "fun" these points will be for the majority of players in terms of gameplay and time it takes to implement in a balanced state.
 

Grand Historian

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Stamp out centers of reformation how? The provinces will probably have Religious Zeal for 20+ years (probably more), ensuring that no amount of missionary strength will convert them. If you conquer them they'll still be spreading Protestantism in your country :)

You could always just call in these guys to get the job done:
spanish-python--008.jpg
 

winddy

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What if the other countries that is not in EU but has Protestant or Catholic? Can they join this? Or will this be exclusive to EU?
Also Wish to see something similar to this happen other than EU. It describe as religion struggle right? SO why not conflict between Muslim (It has 2 sub Muslims) and Confucian / Shinto / Buddhist? It should be more alternate history. :)
 

the cool guy

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So reformed won't be included in the mechanics. Very sad. At least make it like if protestantism fails completely and reformed becomes huge then reformed takes protestantisms place or something like that.
 
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