EU4 - Art of War - Dev Diary 10 - Achievements, Auto Transport and South America

[Empreorpoef]

hordes needs mechanic changes

if you really think they are fine the way they are now you are delusional

they don't play much different from other nations - mostly different in terms of raw numerical bonuses

 

[oblio-]

Wow you can be a smart-ass. Oh but I can too.

Yes. Yes because? Units. Westernization could do with a rework. However, horde system should stay the same on its own. If westernization gets done, it needs to be done for everyone.

So I have ADM tech 19 and DIP tech 19 and MIL tech 19, yet for some reason the magical fairies do not allow me to build cannons?
While Genghis Khan had one of the most disciplined armies in the world in the 1200s (!), I, as the khan of the Golden Horde, can't teach a bunch of dimwits which end of the rifle they should hold?
Why am I allowed to reach MIL 19 then as an unreformed horde? If I'm a "horde" it should be close to impossible, for whatever reason. Because MIL 19 is supposed to bring a certain level of military sophistication, after all. I can build a Tenaille or a War College or a Admiralty, but not train gun-wearing horse riders (!).


I'm using 19 as a random number, obviously. Replace it with 12 or 32, if you prefer.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

And this is perfectly SIMULATED in the fact that they REFORM to and WESTERNIZE to get WESTERN TECH RELATED STUFF?

Wow! WOW!

Neat.

Glad that's over.

You should use the object on your shoulders. If you're going to quote me, address the points I make please.

Both the reform requirements, and the way hordes are depicted as "unreformed" in some cases, are flagrantly asinine. The only thing that appears "over" is your ability to formulate a counter argument. Maybe you can demonstrate otherwise. Good luck.

 

[Seelmeister]

Folks, let's calm the discussion down here.

Feel free to continue discussing the hordes, but no more personal insults.

 

[Schmoekoeksklok]

Well UH.

We get "Imperialism" CB at dip22 tech... And it's a CB on everyone, permanantly, to conquer them.

>_> Not sure how ANYTHING could hamper that.

though it does sort of make some of the idea group cb seem pointless. Like expansions east asia cb set? Whats the point now if you reach dip22 you can paint their land in swathes anyways.

I don't know about you, but I kind of like doing something during the first 200 years of the game as well.

 

[Umega]

So. Many. Changes. My first AOW game will be very interesting indeed. I can't wait for the patch notes...
Also 2 questions I still need to know about:
Can you form Mexico as reformed/westernized Aztecs?
Is the historical friends for Crimea and Ottomans still there?

 

[Taterthomp2]

So I have ADM tech 19 and DIP tech 19 and MIL tech 19, yet for some reason the magical fairies do not allow me to build cannons?
While Genghis Khan had one of the most disciplined armies in the world in the 1200s (!), I, as the khan of the Golden Horde, can't teach a bunch of dimwits which end of the rifle they should hold?
Why am I allowed to reach MIL 19 then? If I'm a "horde" it should be close to impossible, for whatever reason. Because MIL 19 is supposed to bring a certain level of military sophistication, after all. I can build a Tenaille or a War College or a Admiralty, but not train gun-wearing horse riders.


I'm using 19 as a random number, obviously. Replace it with 12 or 32, if you prefer.

Again. Westernization as a whole. don't single it out to be a horde only problem.

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

Well UH.

We get "Imperialism" CB at dip22 tech... And it's a CB on everyone, permanantly, to conquer them.

>_> Not sure how ANYTHING could hamper that.

though it does sort of make some of the idea group cb seem pointless. Like expansions east asia cb set? Whats the point now if you reach dip22 you can paint their land in swathes anyways.

At that point you already have a CB on everyone it’s called no-CB war and it costs 50 ADM or less; that is an incentive to waste points in what is a pretty much useless tech three (after unlocking embassies) for conquest heavy games. I don´t see your point really.

 

[User4035]

The predictable result however is making conquest slower and IMHO it won´t regulate CB at all, it only gives control over the web of alliances. It brings more fantasy into the game not only because of double war score requirement for non-belligerent enemies (whatever that means in this game) but also by letting the attacking party have a definite saying in the countries involved on the defensive side which is silly because that decision is not up to them. Sorry for being so negative but IMO this is broken no matter how I look at it. This game would probably be better off with no war leader changes especially in a patch that occupying the war leader by 100% is not enough to have 100% war score, at least not until 5 years have passed.

Well its something.
I always hated that you could deck a 1 provicne minor then go take land from his allies as if you had decked them.

When you answer a call to arms it doesn't mean your committing your nation to Total War.

Personally I wanted the cassus belli system to be way more fleshed out but paradox won't do that either because they don't want to or eu4 just can't.

 

[2757xx]

They mentioned in the stream that there were several examples royal marriages between different religion groups---in Asia at least.

While this may be true, it is also true that Islam is not that into marrying between different religions, especially the Non-Muslim is a man. So I think there should be considerations of limiting which religion groups can marry between themselves. It is not all free or all not free.

And I am fairly sure that there can be other inconsistencies in other religions. I only pointed out about Islam, because I only know about it.

 

[oblio-]

Again. Westernization as a whole. don't single it out to be a horde only problem.

I don't actually mind westernization as an idea: we get it - the Westerners ruled the world in this period. Having a bit weaker units for other countries is potentially interesting, provided there's a balance: some peak earlier, some peak later. This makes for an interesting, varied game.

But completely locking some countries out seems radical. Especially since the AI doesn't know how to get out of its prison.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Again. Westernization as a whole. don't single it out to be a horde only problem.

There are legit horde-only problems that are exacerbated. Historically, hordes did the equivalent of recruiting from foreign cores and they did it often. Gone. Historically, hordes were monarchies in every way the game would define it in some cases. Nope. Historically, hordes did adjust their equipment and tactics over the period...nope.

Defending these nerfs to hordes is roughly as sensible as giving England a tribal government until Scotland gets a DHE PU over them and forms GB. Utter nonsense.

Westernization is a different can of worms indeed. We don't even know what the new tech groups will look like, in the context of sub-Saharan being 60% instead of 100%.

 

[DominusNovus]

Guyana, Venezuela and Colombia:

First of all: Fantastic Dev Diary overall. Amazing how much info you put in there.

Second: Could we get a political mapmode view of that same region? Its hard to see the new provinces there without zooming in (and even then...), since its in terrain mode.

 

[oblio-]

First of all: Fantastic Dev Diary overall. Amazing how much info you put in there.

+1

Even though I may have reacted negatively to the horde change, the patch/DLC look amazing and this dev diary was very nice.

 

[RobRoy3]

No more foreign unit recruitment and no changes to horde units.

This, this I don't like.

Yeah. Not sure what kind of abuse they're trying to prevent. But it seems an unnecessary nerf. And it removes an entertaining option for several nations (not just hordes).

 

[Simoleum]

Is there a possibility for dynamic changing names for the Americas based on who discovered them? At least for Portugal and Spain that would be pretty easy as there are loads of provinces with their names (Porto Seguro, etc). If the province were to be discovered by another country it would keep it's local name or maybe change to the language of the discoverer? That would be a sweet touch! But just looking at this expansion it will be absolutely amazing

 

[Comradebot]

Sees East Africa, gets excited, enjoy what I read, notice they cut short of dipping down into Swahili/Mutapa territory.

You guys are cruel, so very cruel. Making me wait to the zero hour to see if anything to make things down there a wee bit more interesting. If I wasn't so jazzed about all the stuff in the rest of East Africa and South America, why I'd... I'd...

... probably lay in my bed and have a good cry.


But c'mon: improvements to Southeastern Africa and NIs for Mutapa or... or yeah, the bed crying part.

 

[Taterthomp2]

You should use the object on your shoulders. If you're going to quote me, address the points I make please.

Both the reform requirements, and the way hordes are depicted as "unreformed" in some cases, are flagrantly asinine. The only thing that appears "over" is your ability to formulate a counter argument. Maybe you can demonstrate otherwise. Good luck.

1. Unreformed. ...Kay.
Here I will tackle that issue.

This game places the player in control of any nation on the planet between 1444 and 1821. The era in question is, as you might expect, 1444-1821~
being technologically advanced in 1200 is not very useful in 1444, much like in game, having level 6 adm, dip, mil early wont mean that in 50 years youll be able to still be ahead. Once again. Hordes. Were. In. Decline. Assimilating into other cultural groups. They did not, contrary to what some people have stated, get 'whiped out' no. Afterall, there are still 'tatar' all around. I myself have friends of sakha ancestry of Sibir tribes. A 'horde'

That being said. they were no Genghis Khans! Should every european ruler be a charlemagne? every native be a hiawatha? of course not. So why must your precious hordes be compared constantly to their progenitors. But there are nomadic peoples living in mongolia TODAY. At this moment. So what makes a horde a horde? As far as I can tell, YOU don't know, and assume no one else does either.

horde
hôrd/
noun
noun: horde; plural noun: hordes

1.
derogatory
a large group of people.
"he was surrounded by a horde of tormenting relatives"
an army or tribe of nomadic warriors.
"Tartar hordes"
synonyms: crowd, mob, pack, gang, group, troop, army, legion, swarm, mass, herd, rabble; More
throng, multitude, host, band, flock, drove, press, crush;
informalcrew, tribe, pile
"a horde of fans stormed the playing field"
2.
Anthropology
a loosely knit small social group typically consisting of about five families.

They stopped being 'hordes' when they stopped being nomadic and that is why 'horde' is actually DEROGATORY to modern Tatar people.

So the reformation is the point at which a horde stops essentially being a horde. They settle. It's not even really represented what a horde should be in this game AT ALL.

So that is why they lose the "Horde" government, and change to whatever mc carboncopy-of-europe.

They should upon reformation and westernization be western level units, or at least acceptably strong alternatives.

Cannons? That's not "horde" issue. That is WESTERNIZATION issue.

If you want to bring that up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon#Development_in_China
! India should have BETTER SWORDS THAN ANYONE because DAMASCUS STEEL COMES FROM INDIA ORIGINALLY. Japan shouldnt have SHIPS and only be able to use the straights until MUCH LATER, to emulate how they stayed put and fought amongst themselves for a thousand years.

Not only are you basing your argument on something that doesn't correlate to the points you make, but you mock my ability to understand your convoluted train of thought.

Now maybe some hordes, should indeed, start reformed, but then, that would make them NOT a horde by the very basis of what a HORDE is.

So, I really don't see what point you can have other than "i wunt mungul stronk"

At least not in the realm of RATIONAL VALID POINTS that you can make.

Don't focus a problem with westernization onto one group simply because thats the group you want to play. If you want balance, be balanced about your desire for it. All you want is an easier horde game. Period.

 

[dharper]

This keeps looking better and better. I keep looking for it on Steam to pre-order. WHY WON'T YOU LET ME THROW MONEY AT YOU?

 

[nalivayko]

Today we’ll speak about southern Russian region, which is my actual homeland.

Wiz, if you don't mind, where exactly are you from? (Mariupol and Michurinsk myself).

More to the point, I am curious regarding the choice of the name Kyzyl-Yar for the province north of Azov (a mix of Zaporozhye and Donetsk regions today, Lukomor'e of Pushkin and CK2, Taurida or Taurian province for the players of Napoleonic games). I've done a quick search and I can find plenty of Kyzyl-Yars (Red Cliff) in Crimea, Bashkiria, Kyrgyzstan, but none in the above-mentioned region. Is it a historic name? I know the province is a strong name for the wild fields here, since there were no cities worth mentioning for quite a long time, so I am ok either way. Again, just curious.

EDIT: Never mind the last. Melitopol used to be called Kyzyl-Yar apparently. Of course, it looks like the actual city location on the EU4 map is in the Yedushkil province, whereas Kyzyl-Yar seems to have Berdyansk for its capital... in which case either Kutur-Ogly or Berdy would've been a better name. Nitpicking, I know.