EU4 - 1.8 - Major Power Idea Changes

[Brent15]

I feel a bit disapointed as a diplomatic player. I loved that cost reduction for austria.

It did feel a bit more historical.

 

[Novacat]

Actually, I've realized that France isn't ALL that OP.

Thing is, France and Muscovy are both alike in that they combine the best starting positions with decent NIs. Sure, their NIs are not the best in the game, but with their obnoxiously good starting positions they really do not need the extra power from NIs. The only state that truly depends on its NIs is Brandenburg, which without its NIs would be just another generic 3-province german state that would never leave a meaningful impact on the game.

 

[Matrix.disc]

I feel a bit disapointed as a diplomatic player. I loved that cost reduction for austria.

The bonus is still there, just in a different form - now when you diploannex, you don't complete one full monthly tick (which was equal to 1 basetax of provinces annexed) of 15 diplocost each month.
Now one basetax costs 10 diplopoints -whatever diploannex bonus you have. But now also it's not 15 diplopoints tick - instead you complete base 1 + 1if_same_religion + 1if_same_culturegroup + your_diplomatic_reputation. That means that with the +5 diplo_reputation idea of Austria, you still get annexation done faster.

 

[saegoto]

The bonus is still there, just in a different form - now when you diploannex, you don't complete one full monthly tick (which was equal to 1 basetax of provinces annexed) of 15 diplocost each month.
Now one basetax costs 10 diplopoints -whatever diploannex bonus you have. But now also it's not 15 diplopoints tick - instead you complete base 1 + 1if_same_religion + 1if_same_culturegroup + your_diplomatic_reputation. That means that with the +5 diplo_reputation idea of Austria, you still get annexation done faster.

Austria's Habsburg Dominance idea has +2 diplomatic reputation now I guess, since +1 dip rep in art of war is equvalent of +3 dip rep in 1.7.3.

 

[Sjakie]

The bonus is still there, just in a different form - now when you diploannex, you don't complete one full monthly tick (which was equal to 1 basetax of provinces annexed) of 15 diplocost each month.
Now one basetax costs 10 diplopoints -whatever diploannex bonus you have. But now also it's not 15 diplopoints tick - instead you complete base 1 + 1if_same_religion + 1if_same_culturegroup + your_diplomatic_reputation. That means that with the +5 diplo_reputation idea of Austria, you still get annexation done faster.

I believe it only works towards annexation speed, not cost. Speed is rarely ever the problem, cost is. Then again the cheaper cost overall is especially good for a country like Austria.

 

[wingzero890]

Elan remains unchanged?

 

[1alexey]

It would be great if Brandenburg`s ideas were changed to help their early game more, and be stacking to the less obnoxious level in late game, so we can see decent quality but huge for country`s small size army, "an army with a state", not a "50000 Spartans" set of NIs.

 

[Novacat]

It would be great if Brandenburg`s ideas were changed to help their early game more, and be stacking to the less obnoxious level in late game, so we can see decent quality but huge for country`s small size army, "an army with a state", not a "50000 Spartans" set of NIs.

Brandenburg's NIs already pretty decently help them with their early game with -10% AE impact, +10% Tax, and +0.5 Army Tradition. Though, switching out Army Professionalism with Religious Toleration would give Brandenburg a bit more early-game money, while it would take a bit longer for their troops to get fully buffed.

As I said, I really like how Brandenburg is. Its NIs are powerful yes, but its starting position is lousy, unlike the French and Russians whom already are the most powerful states in their neighborhood you have to build your empire from scratch. I rather like that, it gives an incentive to play a 3 province minor that would otherwise be completely ignored.

 

[hwoosh]

I believe it only works towards annexation speed, not cost. Speed is rarely ever the problem, cost is. Then again the cheaper cost overall is especially good for a country like Austria.

Speed will be a problem, since if I'm understanding the new system correctly the base rate will be 10 months per BT. The lower cost will be to everyone's benefit, but Austria's unique >+1 diprep bonus should give them a major advantage in expansion speed.

 

[1alexey]

Brandenburg's NIs already pretty decently help them with their early game with -10% AE impact, +10% Tax, and +0.5 Army Tradition. Though, switching out Army Professionalism with Religious Toleration would give Brandenburg a bit more early-game money, while it would take a bit longer for their troops to get fully buffed.

As I said, I really like how Brandenburg is. Its NIs are powerful yes, but its starting position is lousy, unlike the French and Russians whom already are the most powerful states in their neighborhood you have to build your empire from scratch. I rather like that, it gives an incentive to play a 3 province minor that would otherwise be completely ignored.

But that`s the thing, I don`t like that their NIs don`t really help them improve their lousy position.

At the very least, the manpower bonus could come earlier, when you most need it. Tax bonus is meaningless.

I would change it to something like:
tradition:
army_tradition = 0.5
ae_impact = -0.10 same as now

-20% building cost and power
+33% force limits
+25% manpower
-15% adviser cost
+10% army morale
+10% infantry power
+2 tolerance heretics and maybe heathens

+5% discipline ambition

fits the description of "army with a state" better, IMO.

 

[Beagá]

Why not change Russia´s NI too to finally make westernizing worth it?

+1 to reduction on Elán to 10% morale bônus as well

Thing is, France and Muscovy are both alike in that they combine the best starting positions with decent NIs. Sure, their NIs are not the best in the game, but with their obnoxiously good starting positions they really do not need the extra power from NIs. The only state that truly depends on its NIs is Brandenburg, which without its NIs would be just another generic 3-province german state that would never leave a meaningful impact on the game.

So what? they were Lucky.

IMO the whole national idea thing should be scrapped and Policies be improved, so that ANY german country can have a good military. Why a Bavária that fights wars almost non-stop can´t have a military as good as Brandenburg? Prussian ubermensch?

 

[1alexey]

IMO the whole national idea thing should be scrapped

No, this forum will die from lack of purpose

Besides I like countries having character, EU3 was terrible, you got same ideas all the time, and with policies we will degrade to that stare. It is "fair", but sour and uninteresting, game with build in imbalances is more fun.

 

[Novacat]

But that`s the thing, I don`t like that their NIs don`t really help them improve their lousy position.

At the very least, the manpower bonus could come earlier, when you most need it. Tax bonus is meaningless.

Tax bonus is very meaningful in the early game, which is when you get the majority of your income from taxes (the shift to production/trade does not happen until late game) and where money is most tight. Infact, by comparison Building Cost/Power do almost nothing because you do not even consider building structures until the mid-game when you have extra pocket change laying around.

 

[Casus_Belli]

why not nerf France? :angry:

 

[Red John]

+1 to reduction on Elán to 10% morale bônus as well

Making Spain's starting traditions stronger than France's Elan?

Thing is, France and Muscovy are both alike in that they combine the best starting positions with decent NIs. Sure, their NIs are not the best in the game, but with their obnoxiously good starting positions they really do not need the extra power from NIs. The only state that truly depends on its NIs is Brandenburg, which without its NIs would be just another generic 3-province german state that would never leave a meaningful impact on the game.

Muscovy actually has extremely good NIs. The only one that isn't *all* that useful is the production efficiency, but that can be alright in the late game.

But otherwise, yeah. France just has an extremely good starting position.

 

[1alexey]

Tax bonus is very meaningful in the early game, which is when you get the majority of your income from taxes (the shift to production/trade does not happen until late game) and where money is most tight.

Nope. It is hilariously easy to get large production and trade income by 1500 by Brandenburg.
You even can get more than 50% of income from Trade, if you kill Hanza and kick Denmark fast.

Buildings give you both income and manpower, which is far better.

Infact, by comparison Building Cost/Power do almost nothing because you do not even consider building structures until the mid-game when you have extra pocket change laying around.

Again, no. You can`t expand fast in HRE. I tend to build first set of buildings as soon as I hit level 5 tech as Brandenburg.

As I said, this NI set is pretty Brandenburg-specific, at least the way I play it, it would really help. Quick buildings allow fast improvement of economy and manpower within your small confinement, extra force limits allow you to take on Poland, Hanza or Denmark early, as force limits is you main problem.

At least before 1550, I tend to have all manpower buildings in all my provinces as any German state, Brandenburg, Austria and Hanza particularly.

 

[Outrider]

Brandenburg's NIs already pretty decently help them with their early game with -10% AE impact, +10% Tax, and +0.5 Army Tradition.

Tax may or may not be significant depending on expansion. +10% effectively grants you an additional 0.2 monthly income (roughly 1 inf regiment) for every 24 BT, which won't be added very quick if you're conquering within the HRE. Trade income usually increases much faster, especially for a Brandenburg that can jump onto Pommerania and then either NE to Danzig and other TO land or West into Hansa area.

The -10% AE impact has a fairly minimal impact within the HRE in the current build, insignificantly changing years AE/conquered province.

I can't really say if a +20 stable AT makes a huge difference or not, about 1/2 a shock/fire pip if the tested distributions are linear.

 

[Beagá]

Making Spain's starting traditions stronger than France's Elan?



Muscovy actually has extremely good NIs. The only one that isn't *all* that useful is the production efficiency, but that can be alright in the late game.

But otherwise, yeah. France just has an extremely good starting position.

It´s fine with me, if France gets morale because it fought tons of wars, Spain has the right as well. Paradox "logic" must be applied everywhere, lol (else it isn´t fair).

Production efficiency is nice, as tax isn´t very hot for Russia due to orthodox maluses plus all the fur you have. What must be changed is the tech cost malus. It makes westernizing way too pointless, and I don´t agree with that.

 

[Freudia]

It´s fine with me, if France gets morale because it fought tons of wars, Spain has the right as well. Paradox "logic" must be applied everywhere, lol (else it isn´t fair).

Production efficiency is nice, as tax isn´t very hot for Russia due to orthodox maluses plus all the fur you have. What must be changed is the tech cost malus. It makes westernizing way too pointless, and I don´t agree with that.

Why should they westernize? They're Eastern tech; they don't need to westernize.

 

[1alexey]

Why should they westernize? They're Eastern tech; they don't need to westernize.

Considering EU series westernisation is modeled after Russian westernisation, the game should heavily encourage them to.