EU4 - 1.8 - Major Power Idea Changes

[Squirrelloid]

have you ever played a multiplayer game with 13 people in europe? in mp only mulitary factors matter and diplomacy between players. your diploannex cost to save ~250 dip points for land power is such a waste of slot.

What in the world does this have to do with my post?

Also, I have not played MP. I have no interest in MP. I find the game system poorly designed for a rewarding MP experience. There's too much random chance for it to be a meaningful game between players, which completely washes out any difference in skill. (And several changes they've made, like longer truce timers, only reinforce that effect).

Most players only play SP. The game was clearly designed (originally) around SP. Stop ruining SP for MP 'balance'.

Finally, there's no need to balance MP. The large MP games will get balanced by player diplomancy. Nations have no need to be balanced against each other, because players can gang up on nations which are or become too powerful (and should!).

If I was going to play a MP game of strategic conquest, I'd play (and have played) Diplomacy. Vastly better designed and balanced for MP games. Or Dominions 3 if we insist on only comparing to computer games, which is showing its age, but probably the best military MP game I've ever played (turn based and fantasy though it is).

 

[Zak Preston]

Doesn't make sense, from a historical point of view at least. Alongside many others, Castile major problem was not the quality of its army or generals, but the lack of manpower and the problems to pay the few soldiers it can field plus the many fronts the Habsburgs had. Manpower bonuses for Castile are really unhistorical, specially "volunteers" from America. Afterall even the soldiers who conquer the Americas were usually veterans hired like mercenaries from Europe (the "army" of Cortés was pretty much composed by veterans from Italian Wars) seeking a better life, comeback to the mainland to fight for the spanish king would be probably the last of their desires. Rather than MP I would argue it could make sense some kind of War Exhaustion reduction bonus, since the resilence of Castile holding the line for almost 200 years of constant war against Ottomans, France and Protestants was quite a thing.

I guess that a fully formed France that constantly crushes to dirt Spain + Portugal + England solo is not that historical too. Threre are two possible ways: nerf France or buff neighbors. Guess buffing would be a better option.

In Western Europe no AI except blobbed AI Austria (Prussia never forms) can challenge AI France. Is that historical?

 

[AndreasPhokas]

Doesn't help that spain AI can't try to use its mountains properly but fixing AI is....a chore. Elan needs to be moved later or reduced to 10 or 15%. IIRC france's armies until the Grande Armee were more quantity based with solid cav than quality based. France has nearly bottomless Manpower with a solid discipline and morale bonus

Give france a cav power bonus, merc cost reduction and a morale bonus(I do think a morale bonus is fine) for their military NIs.

 

[MiniaAr]

Just throwing a suggestion out there: Why not wait until the patch to see how all those changes impact eachother before requesting additional changes or complaining that the nerf/buff wasn't enough?

Just saying....

 

[Hrodebert]

English Ideas are just awesome! Although in my opinion they should have a bonus colonist in their ideas, exempli gratia "Virginia Company: +1 colonist".

 

[saegoto]

We went through this before, Prussia is fine and does not need a nerf. I would rather the Prussians being militarily dominant than any of the 1444 European majors.

look what kind of rules are in multiplayer games:

Other than that almost any country is free to be picked by anyone, but there are some exceptions:
- You may not play Brandenburg.
- You may not form Prussia with any nation. The reason for this is balance, since Brandenburg and Prussia quite frankly has OP ideas so if they're in the game they tend to either grow large and completely dominate everyone else, or everyone else gangs up on them early and just destroys them. So it's best if they are not played.
- You may not play Ming, also balance reasons.

Prussia with its +40% morale bonus and 6 6 6 generals is unplayable in mp games (permanent 100% military tradition)

Besides, Tercios were only dominant for a short time.

yes, about 200 years, half of game time. just a short period...

 

[Freudia]

look what kind of rules are in multiplayer games:



Prussia with its +40% morale bonus and 6 6 6 generals is unplayable in mp games (permanent 100% military tradition)

These are the same people who ban anyone below Ottoman tech level from taking exploration or expansion as their first idea group, so I fail to see how that means much.

 

[Tzeentch_]

look what kind of rules are in multiplayer games:

By that logic France, Sweden and Ottomans pre-Ghazi nerf should be banned too. They are all much stronger nations as they actually start formed in 1444. That's honestly the most ridiculous MP rule I've ever seen.

Prussia with its +40% morale bonus and 6 6 6 generals is unplayable in mp games (permanent 100% military tradition)



yes, about 200 years, half of game time. just a short period...

I checked out your MP game, the one you're complaining so much about Prussia in. This was the first session, right?

The reason Prussia is wrecking your shit is because you didn't adequately fill the HRE nor did anyone bother dealing with Brandenburg when he was small. There is no Hansa, no Denmark, no Cologne, no Bohemia, or anyone else other than Austria in the HRE. It's like having no Burgundy or Castile then wondering why France got so big so fast. I'm all for buffing other nations, but nerfing a 3 province minor that never even forms Prussia in SP anyway is just idiotic.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

look what kind of rules are in multiplayer games:



Prussia with its +40% morale bonus and 6 6 6 generals is unplayable in mp games (permanent 100% military tradition)



yes, about 200 years, half of game time. just a short period...

Citing bad MP house rules is not definitive evidence of a balance issue. A lot of MP games still ignorantly ban exploration to Asian nations and cite balance + absurd assertions of colonial rates that don't match reality. More than a few just blithely ignore the game's peace deal design too, even after it was changed considerably in 1.7...heck most players don't even know the new rules still I think.

Edit:

Aside from Vijay, which really shouldn't be over there by himself (nor should Timurids), player placement isn't that bad in that game. It's also too early for Prussia to be "OP". They might have the 20% morale already. Maybe. I don't see the year. They don't have their discipline nor the innovative/defensive/offensive combo, nor the infantry combat ability. Losing to them is basically just advertising that you misplayed in this instance.

 

[saegoto]

The reason Prussia is wrecking your shit is because you didn't adequately fill the HRE nor did anyone bother dealing with Brandenburg when he was small. There is no Hansa, no Denmark, no Cologne, no Bohemia, or anyone else other than Austria in the HRE. It's like having no Burgundy or Castile then wondering why France got so big so fast. I'm all for buffing other nations, but nerfing a 3 province minor that never even forms Prussia in SP anyway is just idiotic.

You just confirm that statement:

since Brandenburg and Prussia quite frankly has OP ideas so if they're in the game they tend to either grow large and completely dominate everyone else, or everyone else gangs up on them early and just destroys them. So it's best if they are not played.

destroying Brandenburg in early game is the only way to stand up to them

btw Cologne in MP?

 

[ChildeR]

Just throwing a suggestion out there: Why not wait until the patch to see how all those changes impact eachother before requesting additional changes or complaining that the nerf/buff wasn't enough?

Just saying....

And miss the chance to speculate and whine? Never!

 

[MiniaAr]

You just confirm that statement:

destroying Brandenburg in early game is the only way to stand up to them

btw Cologne in MP?

Yes Usually 4 players at least in the German region (including Austria) seems like a minimal setup:
- Austria
- Hansa
- Brandenburg or Bohemia
- One West German: Switzerland, Bavaria, Palatinate are the usual suspects, Cologne falls into this category.

More and more games add even more countries in the HRE:
Separation of South German and West German: Bavaria, Switzerland/Palatinate, Cologne, Hesse
Bohemia AND Brandenburg

In your post, you have a grand total of 2 countries in the German region: Brandenburg and Austria i.e. not balanced by current standard.

 

[Tzeentch_]

You just confirm that statement:

destroying Brandenburg in early game is the only way to stand up to them

No, you don't need to kill them off. You just don't give them half of Germany and Scandinavia, then wonder why a quality based army is suddenly extremely strong when combined with all that free tax, force limits, manpower and trade.

btw Cologne in MP?

It doesn't really matter who it is, but a western German minor is nice for balance. Brandenburg, Hansa, Austria, Switzerland and Cologne fill the gaps in the HRE and can actually expand without killing each other, at least for a while. They are my prefered player spots.

 

[Grimsley]

I'm English and I don't understand the English tradition of an accepted culture buff. 20% off a base 20% means England's accepted culture threshold is now 16% of total base tax? Is it because of Ireland? Or England's holdings in France?

Inclined to agree. Not so sure about the strong basis for that one.

I would have rather they managed to fit a late game colonist into England's ideas somewhere - much later than the Iberians but at a time where it would really help them play catchup. It's the main thing that England seems to be missing the most right now, especially with all the new overseas provinces getting added.

 

[Grand Historian]

I got excited when I saw Castile was losing a colonist - only to be disappointed to see they'll just get one later in the game. I was really hoping to see a major nerf to the Iberian insane colonial speed. Oh well, I guess the other changes are nice too.

Keep in mind that Spain's Colonizing speed is it's main balancer against France. France's armies are horribly OP in early game in comparison to Castile/Spain's (I know I'm going to get flamed for saying that), especially when the Spanish had defeated them multiple times in their heyday (for example, the Battles of Pavia, Cerignola, Garigliano and Marciano.)

Unfortunately the game doesn't necessarily represent how strong the Spanish Military was during its Golden Age under Charles V and Phillip II (even with the morale and possible-but-unlikely discipline buff), so their main advantage is grabbing up huge chunks of colonizable land before the other European nations can, like they historically did, thus giving them the necessary monetary bonus' to offset France. Now with that gone the balance of power has been severely damaged.

 

[Red John]

Keep in mind that Spain's Colonizing speed is it's main balancer against France. France's armies are horribly OP in early game in comparison to Castile/Spain's (I know I'm going to get flamed for saying that), especially when the Spanish had defeated them multiple times in their heyday (for example, the Battles of Pavia, Cerignola, Garigliano and Marciano.)

Actually, I've realized that France isn't ALL that OP.

It starts off in a rich region with high tax and high manpower, and has a mission which allows it to get 100 army tradition immediately, but that's about it. They get no discipline bonuses or anything like that until the very end, and the morale boost is only 5% less than Castilles will be when AoW releases, and Castille starts with that.

It doesn't have Prussian ideas, which snowball to a hilarious degree, but it instead has a decent morale buff two ideas in, and doesn't get another military boost (unless you count the defense bonus) until the very end of the NIs.

The main reason it's seen as OP, I've again realized, is due to the fact that lucky nations garner next to no AE for conquering land, allowing France to absolutely dominate with Lucky nations bonuses and no coalitions.

 

[LastSalian]

Actually, I've realized that France isn't ALL that OP.

It starts off in a rich region with high tax and high manpower, and has a mission which allows it to get 100 army tradition immediately, but that's about it. They get no discipline bonuses or anything like that until the very end, and the morale boost is only 5% less than Castilles will be when AoW releases, and Castille starts with that.

It doesn't have Prussian ideas, which snowball to a hilarious degree, but it instead has a decent morale buff two ideas in, and doesn't get another military boost (unless you count the defense bonus) until the very end of the NIs.

The main reason it's seen as OP, I've again realized, is due to the fact that lucky nations garner next to no AE for conquering land, allowing France to absolutely dominate with Lucky nations bonuses and no coalitions.

Also they "randomly" get >=4 shock generals from the beginning. I'm ok with that, though; I like challenges.

 

[NotConforming]

Actually, I've realized that France isn't ALL that OP.

It starts off in a rich region with high tax and high manpower, and has a mission which allows it to get 100 army tradition immediately, but that's about it. They get no discipline bonuses or anything like that until the very end, and the morale boost is only 5% less than Castilles will be when AoW releases, and Castille starts with that.

It doesn't have Prussian ideas, which snowball to a hilarious degree, but it instead has a decent morale buff two ideas in, and doesn't get another military boost (unless you count the defense bonus) until the very end of the NIs.

The main reason it's seen as OP, I've again realized, is due to the fact that lucky nations garner next to no AE for conquering land, allowing France to absolutely dominate with Lucky nations bonuses and no coalitions.

France is not OP and was not OP in the latest version... France starts out with the best homeland (+ easy vassals and english provinces to take immediately). Austria relies on a lucky PU, Castille and Aragon are occupied with killing each other instead of defending and England is a joke. They are relatively strong, but any experienced player knows how to beat back France. You don't even need any military advantages, just good allies and a solid strategy.

 

[PhroX]

Actually, I've realized that France isn't ALL that OP.

It starts off in a rich region with high tax and high manpower, and has a mission which allows it to get 100 army tradition immediately, but that's about it. They get no discipline bonuses or anything like that until the very end, and the morale boost is only 5% less than Castilles will be when AoW releases, and Castille starts with that.

It doesn't have Prussian ideas, which snowball to a hilarious degree, but it instead has a decent morale buff two ideas in, and doesn't get another military boost (unless you count the defense bonus) until the very end of the NIs.

The main reason it's seen as OP, I've again realized, is due to the fact that lucky nations garner next to no AE for conquering land, allowing France to absolutely dominate with Lucky nations bonuses and no coalitions.

It's partly the lack of AE, and partly the fact that they can seriously snowball. With the good starting position AT bonuses early, they can destroy any enemies in the first few decades of the game, and take enough land to ensure that they're always going to be ahead of any potential rivals. A relatively small bonus early on is often far more valuable than a big bonus later in a game like this, as the extra resources (land and through that manpower, FL, money etc.) gained with that small bonus, will, over the course of the game, put you too far ahead.

 

[Tijean]

I feel a bit disapointed as a diplomatic player. I loved that cost reduction for austria.