Eu4 1.31 Timurids vassals issues

[gargilfo]

I have played timurids a bunch in previous versions and dont remember having this problem. Starting out as The timurids Transoxiana is disloyal but it is really easy to get down to less than 40% liberty desire. Even if they are loyal, it sometimes takes the month to tick over to update their attitude because they start as disloyal despite having positive opinion. This has caused Ubek to support their independence despite being loyal and having positive opinion. Is this a new issue or working as intended because I dont think this was a problem in the past.

 

[Kabian]

I have played timurids a bunch in previous versions and dont remember having this problem. Starting out as The timurids Transoxiana is disloyal but it is really easy to get down to less than 40% liberty desire. Even if they are loyal, it sometimes takes the month to tick over to update their attitude because they start as disloyal despite having positive opinion. This has caused Ubek to support their independence despite being loyal and having positive opinion. Is this a new issue or working as intended because I dont think this was a problem in the past.

Good day,
This issue was also on emperor patch and earlier, although uzbek supporting or not the independence is based on AI behaviour that can change with the patch.

It defo happened before leviathan, but maybe the chance has increased

 

[Alblaka]

Disloyal vassals accepting supports of independence from your rivals is WAD,
and I did play a Timurid game just a few weeks ago whilst keeping all my vassals together (with effort and developement)...

but it could be that, if the stars align, your rivals might jump on the chance to support independence in a brief moment of disloyalty, before you can take any effective measures against it.

Can you reproduce the issue? Maybe it's just a rare (mis)alignment of stars.

 

[Livigy]

For my Timurid runs I like to get into the Ajam war asap and then start a war against Uzbek for the Transoxiana cores which will prevent independence issues.

I found the best way to secure the loyalty of vassals early is through mil tech, get an advisor and national focus the first 2 techs will ensure loyalty for you to integrate them.

 

[brantodb01]

Disloyal vassals accepting supports of independence from your rivals is WAD,
and I did play a Timurid game just a few weeks ago whilst keeping all my vassals together (with effort and developement)...

but it could be that, if the stars align, your rivals might jump on the chance to support independence in a brief moment of disloyalty, before you can take any effective measures against it.

Can you reproduce the issue? Maybe it's just a rare (mis)alignment of stars.

Just use the strong duchies modifier from the nobles estate. Makes it really easy, no dev required

 

[Alblaka]

Just use the strong duchies modifier from the nobles estate. Makes it really easy, no dev required

~20-50% (from dev+vassal strength) - 15% (from strong duchies) + 50% (from losing the -50% on ruler death) is not smaller than 50%.

I used a combination of pre-emptively raised opinion, hiring mercy to cap out my forcelimit, diplorep advisor and throwing some prestige + mana to manage it.
I could probably have pacified them without investing dev with some more time and money, but I dev'd up my own cores, so it wouldn't cost me much in the long run, and I wanted to ensure that I wouldn't get outside interference (as OP did).

Strong Duchies definitely helped there, but it wasn't a magic cure-all.

 

[MordredViking]

I remember one game where Ming started to support the independence of my vassals. That was fun.

 

[Skales]

Isn't the ruler of Transoxiana at the start the son of the Timurid ruler?

 

[KaiserWilhelmI]

Isn't the ruler of Transoxiana at the start the son of the Timurid ruler?

Yes. Ulugh Beg briefly reunited the empire after his father's death, but he was far better mathematician and astronomer than he was a ruler, and he was overthrown and killed by his son.

 

[mattkunz]

Restarting the game/ reloading the save uaually works to force the game to update things immediately (e.g. coalitions). I'm not sure if it works for attitudes, but probably worth a try.

I mean something like start a fresh game, enact strong duchies etc., save game, and restart before unpausing, so Uzbeks don't get the chance to support independence.

 

[TheAtreides84]

It doesn't always happen. I tried a game of Timurids into Sikh Mughals a couple of days ago and no vassal got foreign support. Then obviously the savegame got corrupted.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

There's also still the bug where loyal vassals retain support for independence/alliances with other subjects, even once they fall below 50% LD and are loyal.

 

[Kalderus]

I reported this issue a year and a half ago, and bumped it multiple times with months between each and never get an acknowledgement or response.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/eu-iv-timurids-vassal-attitude-change-delay-uzbek-supports-independence-issue.1263528/#post-27413494

Some of the people responding here aren't fully understanding what the issue is though. It's not about how easy/hard it is to keep Timurid vassals loyal, it's about Transoxiana being able to receive independence support from Uzbek during the first month (Nov. 1444) despite being loyal (<50% liberty desire) because it's attitude starts out disloyal and won't change until the month tick to December. Attitude trumps liberty desire, so a vassal with 0% liberty desire yet a hostile attitude can receive independence support, and alternatively a 100% liberty desire vassal with a loyal attitude can't.

Altering vassal attitudes so that they change immediately when liberty desire goes above or below 50% seems to be difficult to do/resource-intensive, but there's a very obvious solution here I previously suggested. Just change Transoxiana's starting vassal attitude to "loyal" yet with the same >50% starting liberty desire. This way, a skilled player can avoid the independence support provided they get the liberty desire below 50% before December 1st, but the AI may still struggle with instability if it fails to do this.

This is not WAD unless a supposedly "loyal" vassal (<50% LD) is supposed to be allowed to receive independence support because a month tick hasn't occured to update its vassal attitude.

And yes, as mentioned above by @TheMeInTeam , even when you get Transoxiana's LD below 50%, Uzbek's support won't go away unless you dec on them.

 

[Manwe_Sulimo]

But you get the LD only below 50 % via the government interaction, no? So that seem to working as intended as attitudes get updated with the monthly tick. Must be quite unlucky that they receive such a fast independence support, didn't happen to me in a couple of Timurid starts in 1.30

 

[Kalderus]

But you get the LD only below 50 % via the government interaction, no? So that seem to working as intended as attitudes get updated with the monthly tick. Must be quite unlucky that they receive such a fast independence support, didn't happen to me in a couple of Timurid starts in 1.30

No, this can't be working as intended because LD changes in real time, so you still end up with a vassal with <50% LD receiving independence support. For this to be working as intended, LD would have to also change with the monthly tick. The AI is essentially exploiting the delay in attitude change for a loyal vassal.

There are multiple ways to lower Transoxiana's LD, the govt. interaction, strong duchies, placating, hiring the scripted half-cost diplo rep advisor, or even devving a low dev province.

This isn't a common occurrence, but I would put it at a 8-10% chance of occurring over several hundred Timurid games since 1.29.