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TheMeInTeam

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OK, but there is one problem: either we make Europeans able to ship 25 000 armies to America or we restrict their numbers but create Colombian Epidemic mechanic which wipes out 90% of indigenous population (in eu4: -90% of manpower, economy, army decreasing slowly over decades).

A false dichotomy fallacy isn't going to carry your argument very far. I could easily say "either we deny Europeans shipping 25000 soldiers or we allow natives to build early carracks", and then simply claim that the disease is modeled perfectly well with the ridiculous tech cost abstraction instead. It's the same approach. Besides, the only time this is possibly relevant (player using new world nation), these regions are going to be far more unified than history ever dreamed, which makes forcibly abstracting such an advantage to the Europeans even more awkward.

But to me this is an annoyance, not some game breaking alteration.

Honestly, the only things in this patch that I find immediately unsettling are the 'natives can't build boats' thing and the lack of mentioning of fixing rebel defection logic. Aside from those, this patch looks pretty alright.

No, let's not forget about the other awful one. Show me that subject nations finally work (IE they core and convert religion consistently, rather than doing nothing for 30 years or more) alongside rebels being less derpy and I'll still peg this as arguably the best patch to date in spite of the annoyances, unless they're dumping hidden changes on us again :p. Serious messing with subject nations and liberty desire absent a fix to a longstanding, frustrating, and game-altering bug would come off as pretty sour. All in all most of the changes look good otherwise.
 

FreeSoc

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There is a non-trivial difference between "difficult" and "random". Being insta-gibbed by the nooby CB (aka colonial conquest) will put you in situations where your soldiers can't win battles. It's a situation where Mesoamerica is denied ships because it's "ahistorical" but it's still okay for Europeans to ship 25000 soldiers to the new world before 1550.

Potential solution: Mesoamericans are still denied boats, but the attrition penalties for troops on transport ships crossing the open ocean are massively increased (slowly decreasing as DIP tech increases and then removed at DIP 22, just like the removal of the "time at sea" penalty for ships themselves at 22), while reinforcement rates for armies in "primitive" provinces in North and South America that belong to a nation whose capital is not in North or South America are also significantly reduced.

That way, CNs can still take on natives without suffering severe reinforcement penalties, because the terrain they're facing is also terrain that they're becoming accustomed to. On the other hand, Castile and Portugal can still try shipping 25,000 men to Mesoamerica, but until the 17th century (-ish) they will have vastly less than 25,000 men when they arrive. (I'd hope that, ultimately, it would be impossible to end up with more than a few thousand men from Iberia actually landing in Mesoamerica in the 15th century, regardless of how many set out.)

The game becomes more historical (Mesoamericans lose their magic heavy ships, but Europeans actually have to care about logistics), but not at the expense of gameplay - Mesoamericans now have a fighting chance at winning wars against Europeans on land pre-Westernisation, while a Euro player now actually has to think about how they're going to approach Mesoamerica, rather than just boringly ROFLstomping everything with 25,000 Magic Scurvy-Proof European Uebermenschen in 1500.

As a corollary, I'd also remove the "New World provinces don't give nationalism", which is easily the worse change in the 1.10 patch-notes. Teach CNs and subjects in general to core (I feel your pain on this, TMIT, I really do), and I reckon that my proposal might lead (with some balancing of the attrition on transported troops, but that'd be Paradox's job, not mine) to more historical* and more interesting gameplay between the Old World and the New.

*(well, mostly, but I don't think that allowing the Iberians to ally with other Mesoamericans mid-war and call them in would be good for game-balance)
 
Last edited:

bbqftw

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wow, more complaints about BYZ? some things don't change.

That would be a mistake. It would make it easier. Start them at war ;).

even then its still an easier version of Albania, which has openers that can be pulled off with extremely high consistency (in terms of not having to reroll for advisors - you still have to have luck with not getting sieged out too early, but scorched earth + good unit micro gives you a very good chance)
 

hashinshin

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wow, more complaints about BYZ? some things don't change.



even then its still an easier version of Albania, which has openers that can be pulled off with extremely high consistency (in terms of not having to reroll for advisors - you still have to have luck with not getting sieged out too early, but scorched earth + good unit micro gives you a very good chance)

That's not 100% true. Albania's low tax base means that it's easy to scorched earth and attrition people to death.
 

bbqftw

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That's not 100% true. Albania's low tax base means that it's easy to scorched earth and attrition people to death.

practically the only RNG involved is "do I siege down Donji Kraji and Hum before Bosnia gives military access" - everything else, including 8v8 battle vs Serbia right after should be relatively straightforward absent freak accidents like Skanderbeg dying in first 5 years

The peace deal afterward relies on the "does not want anything more" modifier, and that countries cannot force return cores + take all your remaining provinces in the same war.
 

Peachrocks

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Potential solution: Mesoamericans are still denied boats, but the attrition penalties for troops on transport ships crossing the open ocean are massively increased (slowly decreasing as DIP tech increases and then removed at DIP 22, just like the removal of the "time at sea" penalty for ships themselves at 22), while reinforcement rates for armies in "primitive" provinces in North and South America that belong to a nation whose capital is not in North or South America are also significantly reduced.

That way, CNs can still take on natives without suffering severe reinforcement penalties, because the terrain they're facing is also terrain that they're becoming accustomed to. On the other hand, Castile and Portugal can still try shipping 25,000 men to Mesoamerica, but until the 17th century (-ish) they will have vastly less than 25,000 men when they arrive. (I'd hope that, ultimately, it would be impossible to end up with more than a few thousand men from Iberia actually landing in Mesoamerica in the 15th century, regardless of how many set out.)

The game becomes more historical (Mesoamericans lose their magic heavy ships, but Europeans actually have to care about logistics), but not at the expense of gameplay - Mesoamericans now have a fighting chance at winning wars against Europeans on land pre-Westernisation, while a Euro player now actually has to think about how they're going to approach Mesoamerica, rather than just boringly ROFLstomping everything with 25,000 Magic Scurvy-Proof European Uebermenschen in 1500.

As a corollary, I'd also remove the "New World provinces don't give nationalism", which is easily the worse change in the 1.10 patch-notes. Teach CNs and subjects in general to core (I feel your pain on this, TMIT, I really do), and I reckon that my proposal might lead (with some balancing of the attrition on transported troops, but that'd be Paradox's job, not mine) to more historical* and more interesting gameplay between the Old World and the New.

*(well, mostly, but I don't think that allowing the Iberians to ally with other Mesoamericans mid-war and call them in would be good for game-balance)

Yeah but any change that helps the new world doesn't exactly help their target 'Eurobaby' audience and to say there's no bias is a complete and utter joke. The expansion may very well be about Aztec, Maya and Inca but it's just as much about Europe and the nature of these changes show they hardly ever play the native american nations for long. It's just, TMIT or DDR Jake did X, lets nerf it to hell because its not what we want in our game (MAH DESIGN!!!!111), while ignoring other unrealistic aspects on the European side.

A lot of the exploits in this game are found to get around stupid mechanics but all too often one hole is closed but nothing is given in compensation. Sure it should be hard to play as the Natives, but it shouldn't be lolololol easy mode for the Europeans.

Your fix works and I'd even add an ability for Europeans to hire 'native allies' similar to mercenaries that would do the bulk of the lifting that would be slightly less or even to the troops fielded by their opponents but the chances of anything like this happening are very low. It's just a band aid on something they see as an exploit that goes against their design without seeing the whole wound.
 

bbqftw

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Don't worry, there will still be Euro players whining about New World rebel tech levels. I guarantee it

- Will now get a penalty to diplomatic reputation if you are Catholic, have subjugated the Pope and have not formed Italy.
- Italy no longer gets a penalty when holding Rome.

I don't think this is going to work out the way you intended this to work out, Paradox. It's not like Italy ideas are bad and that Lombard is particularly difficult to shift into...
 
Last edited:

Dakilla TM

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Some of the changes look fishy to me but I'll wait to play the new patch before I say anything. BUT, where the heck is Yuan? I'm assuming we got Catalunya and Aquelia, and thank God Qing gets the unqiue Chinese events for flavor. But where's Yuan? Is it too hard to let Mongolia transform into Yuan after taking certain provinces?
 

Krajzen

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genius ideas

Paradox pls listen to this guy

No really, transoceanic land troop attrition + higher attrition in New World are very good ideas for balance. Also I'm not sure if it is already in game but I think Europeans in new world should have horrible reinforce rate for their troops.

So, in the most of cases AI still conquers natives easily due to tech power, but human player and occasional lucky/genius AI can eventually overcome decimated troops of conquistador.

Another hilarious ideas:
- before later game tech make ONLY CONQUISTADORS possible to command troops against natives (hey some redeemed noble general won't be sent to suffer on scurvy into hell jungle, conquistador renegades are for that)
- make conquistadors unable to reassigned in New World unless on own cored land so if conquistador dies, duh, Spaniards have to return to Caribbean or other colony and here viceroy assigns another one, instead of magical teleportation (by the way I think 'envoy travel time' should be added for changing all generals and admirals in the game but that's another problem);
- alternate solution: there is a cap on how many troops can be sent through oceans that gets better with diplo technology but conquistadors are able to hire native 'mercenaries' similar to what happened IRL.
 

DC123456789

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Potential solution: Mesoamericans are still denied boats, but the attrition penalties for troops on transport ships crossing the open ocean are massively increased (slowly decreasing as DIP tech increases and then removed at DIP 22, just like the removal of the "time at sea" penalty for ships themselves at 22), while reinforcement rates for armies in "primitive" provinces in North and South America that belong to a nation whose capital is not in North or South America are also significantly reduced.

That way, CNs can still take on natives without suffering severe reinforcement penalties, because the terrain they're facing is also terrain that they're becoming accustomed to. On the other hand, Castile and Portugal can still try shipping 25,000 men to Mesoamerica, but until the 17th century (-ish) they will have vastly less than 25,000 men when they arrive. (I'd hope that, ultimately, it would be impossible to end up with more than a few thousand men from Iberia actually landing in Mesoamerica in the 15th century, regardless of how many set out.)

The game becomes more historical (Mesoamericans lose their magic heavy ships, but Europeans actually have to care about logistics), but not at the expense of gameplay - Mesoamericans now have a fighting chance at winning wars against Europeans on land pre-Westernisation, while a Euro player now actually has to think about how they're going to approach Mesoamerica, rather than just boringly ROFLstomping everything with 25,000 Magic Scurvy-Proof European Uebermenschen in 1500.

This. I honestly have no idea why it hasn't been already been implemented.

Natives should still have access to Galleys and Transports at least. I can obviously see why building Carracks would be kind of ridiculous, but they certainly had the capacity to, and actually did, build and use smaller ships.
 

Grand Historian

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Does vassalizing/marching the Pope count towards subjugating him?
 

Mamluke

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I don't think this is going to work out the way you intended this to work out, Paradox. It's not like Italy ideas are bad and that Lombard is particularly difficult to shift into...

if people are willing to go that far so to NOT recieve a penalty, then they don't deserve to have that penalty!
 

cpm4001

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Potential solution: Mesoamericans are still denied boats, but the attrition penalties for troops on transport ships crossing the open ocean are massively increased (slowly decreasing as DIP tech increases and then removed at DIP 22, just like the removal of the "time at sea" penalty for ships themselves at 22), while reinforcement rates for armies in "primitive" provinces in North and South America that belong to a nation whose capital is not in North or South America are also significantly reduced.

This right here is the best idea for resolving this issue yet.
 

Demetrios

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- Added Important Natural Harbor modifier that replaces Coastal CoTs in provinces that start uncolonized in 1444.
- Added Important Natural Harbors in Manila, Eora, Picunmapu, Cartagena, Panama, Tlapanec, Havana, Barahonas and Massachusetts.
- Added Inland Centre of trades in Hochelaga, Pueblo, Potawatomi, Honniasont, Tamaroa, Winnipeg, Asuncion, Manaus, Bohemia, Borno, Gao, Chengdu, Girin, Nihny Novgorod and Köln.
- Added Estuaries in Chinook, Lenape, Chesapeake, Santee, Guayaquil, Cayor, Quelimane, Pegu/Pathein, Alagoas and Hai Phong.
- Mangaeza now gets an estuary instead of a Centre of Trade.
- Ganges Estuary now broken into 2 less powerful modifiers (one in Dhaka and one in Bengal Delta).
- Irrawady Estuary broken into 2 less powerful modifiers (one in Pegu and one in Pathein).

Thank you for adding my Trade Center province suggestions! A lot of work and research went into that post, and I'm so happy to see it implemented! :)