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Mad King James

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EU3 proposal

I had a thought the other day of a neat way to split the map up QUITE a bit while keeping micromanagement to a minimum: the Province, and the Provincelet!

THE MAP:

Ok the map is mad up of thousands of provincelets, one for every county on the map (some are bigger/smaller than others as they all represent a certain amount of arable land, so desert ones are really huge) and moving armies is based on terrain but also how far apart the provincelets are from each other. You don't manage every provincelet though, you ONLY manage the provinces! New cities will form from events, and give you more provinces, and while these new cities will vastly improve efficiency (the farther a provincelet is from a city, the less goods/taxes/manpower you get) it reduces the importance of the old cities surrounding it.

A city can control as many as 12 or as few as 1 provincelet.

Provinces are where a city (taking up a provincelet) controls a number of nearby provincelets, where all their goods, manpower, and taxes flow to (each provincelet has a base tax value, manpower value, and produced goods) when you click on an area where that city is the provincial capital, you select that city.

In the event that you have 'abandoned' provincelets (no cities) then all the goods go to the nearest city anyways, and the inefficiency of it all reduces manpower and tax collection by 50% (unless of course, that's your ONLY provincelet cluster, in which case you get full taxes and manpower, but still no goods)

Many less advances civilizations cannot even GET cities, and are severely hampered by this, as all their trade inevitably flows into the European colonies that spring up.

TRADE:

Every city imports and exports goods to markets, the more markets you know about, the more markets you have access to. Having access to a market requires in some cases heavy fleet patrols, as you must constantly defend your access to rich foreign markets by rivals and pirates. You can hire pirates to interrupt rival trade and get a cut of their profits. These lines of trade are the Trade Routes. Trade routes can be closed by a hostile nation Closing it's Borders, by Blockading Straights, or by Trade Embargo. Being a strong trading nation requires a very strong navy to defend your far-flung trade routes.

POLITICS:

Royal dynasties create sort of de-facto alliances, and while seperate branches can certainly have rivalries, the same branch will inevitably share resources. As long as two countries share a Dynasty link, they cannot declare war without causing a civil war, have military access with each other, and get the option to enter the war on their side for free. In addition, there are historical coalitions that one can join to fight for a cause greater than petty politics, and that alliance is extremely specific. (the Catholic league is formed to war only against protestants, the Hanseatic League aids only in trade disputes etc) and one can join any number of coalitions as long as they aren't mutually exclusive.
One new peace demand is Annual Tribute of x ducats.
You can give troops and land as gifts to anyone you want, reducing badboy and increasing relations greatly. In addition, you can gift someone an 'annual stipend' to aid their struggles. Also, you can demand tributes (either lump sum or annually) or threaten war, if they refuse, you consider it an insult and gain a causus belli, unfortunately this is considered a badboy action regardless of success or failure, as it's the action of a thug ;)

New vassal types:
Level 1: 'Vassal': While you have your own foreign policy, and have a high degree of independance, you gain automatic 'join in' prompts in wars, and your opinion of other countries tends to drift towards that of your mother country.

Level 2: 'Protectorate': This vassal relinquishes all military foreign policy decisions in exchange for automatic entrance of their protectee in any war declared against them (and vice versa).

Level 3: 'Semi-Autonomous': This vassal has no foreign policy whatsoever, and you can even give orders to their troops and build stuff on their land.

MILITARY:

You arm and train your troops yourself to different military doctrines and strategies, picking from:
Mounted Troops
Ground Troops
Seige Engines

Mounted troops require horses (duh) and each weapon requires a technology, especially seige engines. Mounted and Ground troops can be armed any which way, from bows, crossbows, swords, maces, muskets, rifles, pikes, pointy sticks, slings, you name it. Each unit of a certain type is a 'regiment', and groups of regiments are 'armies' ;)
Your military doctrine can really shift the outcome of using certain weapon combinations :)
(each regiment being 1000 men, if you have 2 regiments of Knights, 3 regiments of Infantry, a few seige engines, and 1 regiment of Longbowmen, that's not a bad English army for Frace, but if you invade Scotland with their Pikemen and Skiltrun doctrine, you're in trouble ;))


Attrition is handled by Supply Lines, which if cut off cause horrid attrition until they can be recovered. Supply lines suffer from bad terrain and distance, and the longer the supply line, the more expensive the military maintenance, especially across continents. You can supply from allies.

Inside an 'empty' provincelet, you can built fortifications, and along borders you can build walls. You can build to seal off straights and with high enough tech, dig channels. The best place for an army to idle in is in fortifications.
 

unmerged(8593)

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Too much CPU time required???

I am afraid it will take too much in CPU time to compute monthly or yearly income, growth and other modifiers for each Provincelet.

Lemme read up on the rest and I will surely respond to the rest of the question.
 
Last edited:

Castellon

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Lots of interesting ideas here MKJ, The devil is in the details, but the outline is great.
 

unmerged(8593)

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Kewl stuff here! :D

Ok here is the rest of my reply.

I especially like the provincelet idea. It might take a bunch of CPU power to utlilize but in essence EU is just a fancy graphical interface put over a giant spreadsheet program so it should work fairly fast if they keep all the graphics 2D and not 3D models.

I find it severely reducing the amount of micromanagement since they would be cities but essentially one can govern and controll multiple Provincelet with one click I am unsure about war resolution, sieging, attacking and revolting provinces. What happens when a Provincelet revolts? I would like to see a provincelet simply as a growth thing or implement it in such a way where you would have multiple goods in a Province ( eg. Fish, Wine and Naval Equipment ) and use the provincelet to shift production of one good over another. Building a Manufactory you could introduce more production of a certain good.

Yet my only problem is that I fail to see a much of a change since Provincelet would add to complexity but not much in way of functionality since you can not control a Provincelet whatsoever.
At least I did not notice you mentioning it, It only in your reach by modifying Dp sliders.


Trade:

Two thumbs up on trying to implement a "Silk Road" sort of thing. It would be of great help if a Trade rount would be controlled by a Empire ( e.g. Uzbek Kaganate controling the Silk Road route through Central Asia and taking taxes or tolls from each of the nations having a merchant trading silk in a COT in Asia. These COTs could have setting for the owner with maybe letting the owner manipulate a bit with how much Chinaware or Slaves are being traded in a COT. Also a competing empires shold be able to take the roads away by having better dimplomatic relations ( e.g Persia might take over a route by bulding a road throu a province conneting China and some other trading nation but only GET a Trade Trade route by having relations of +160
with Venice. This way you actually get rewarded for good diplomatic relations and punished for bad ones. This way diplomatic relations would have a meaning beyond a condition for Annexing ;)

Maybe an option to build roads. It is a shame that EU II has no build road option. Come on the Romans did it, for Godsake! It would implement itself well in military and economical maps. It would increase the speed at wich troups move ( provinces to and fro, with road or not ) and also would be a good option in taking over a Trede Route, combined with diplomacy ( you might have a road but you have a crappy relation with the trading countries and the Trade Route would still be in some other country. If at war - your merchants and settlers become less effective or slower since they cannot travel certain areas.

I can see may nice ways to implement this and help Muslim tech nations in the Middle East or Central Asia since they could use this option to cut of Venice or Genoa from their profitable revenue by reseling caravan goods to rest of Western Europe ( of course BEFORE the Portugal's maritime discoveries or Spains discoveries.

Politics:

Diplomatic options should be surely raised. Like in war resolution you can only ask for tributes but can not 'mix-and-match". I might be losing a war but giving up a province might be too mcuh. I might give up a province but receive 200 gold as a reparation. I might win a war by some percentage but demand a province and give up 5000 cavalry to my enemy. Why not be able to outright buy a province? Not like it has not been done!!! How about receiving or giving dowries in Royal Marriages like it was historycally practiced?

Military:


More units surely and also dependant on the good produced. For example so much Iron would lead to only soo many units of such and such a type. Trading might increase it. And armies should have stats for battles won. Any battle won could influence hit points, morale... Essentially Veteran Units of each flavor of Unit. It means a lot in war historycally and should be implemented.

How about a tactical component for battles ( besides roling the dice ). In essence it is similar to many sports games like NFL Blitz. You chose your attack mode, a frontal, attack on an exposed flank and so on, your opponent choses his - you clash and the atack plans are revealed. You see that you have chosen a frontal attack with your infantry but the opponent has chosen a cavalry attack on the left flank. Depending on the leader stats, terrain modifier, number and type of your troups covering the flank the attack pushes through your defense before your infantry even reaches his defense in the center! This could be an option that a player can leave to the AI or some dafault setting. So you could be able to have a tactical component to a battle and here your idea about troup deployment and different units would matter since some troups are more efficient in some sort of manouvre in the battlefiled! Pikemen are awfully good for defending the center and light cavalry is awsome for a counter attack. Logbowmen or musketeers can engage your rushing heavy cavalry and kill off many of them before being hit by a cavlary charge. Of course we can turn it into an option one chooses BEFORE starting a campaign so any1 who does not like it can do it the old way.


But I am getting to far into this... You have some geniunely kewl ideas and I like them and please feel free to comment on my ideas that follow-up and tie in to yours.

Anywho we might become too Civ-ish.. That would be the main complaint here. I can just see it... Dunno... but I like them. There is stuff lacking with the current sys and we should at least think about these suggestion ESPECIALLY THE TRADE ROUTES!!! Those are a marvelous way to implement roads, have a more meanigfull economy system and a way to employ diplomacy in a great way by having more economic benefit from good diplo relation ( just think MOST FAVOURED TRADING STATUS FROM CHINA! Or a trading edge over Spain since you have better relations with Byzantium who controls the vital trade route for Chinaware through the Middle East :)
 
Last edited:

Carolus Rex

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Originally posted by Patric123
dont merge them. this is a good idea and would be,lost in the other thread. please keep these two separate

No, all EU3 ideas will go into that thread, until Paradox wants to open a wishlist forum...
 

Old Joe

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-only my humble wishes

-all Earth map

-Map Editor,...i mean !MAP!...with possibility to edit terran, add provinces...and so..., but its not going to be i think, so made only just more open game map source, at least

-CoT removing event command

-Native aggresive, ferocity, etc working event commands

-names changing event command(city,province,army etc)

-remove city population limit 999999

-add hills terran ground

-more detailed and accurate tech tree, like in hoi probbly

-more building types, or just infra like in hoi too

-make bb wars on hard level of difficulty..and on normal, along with very easy...:), and make bbwars critiacal point(32 iirc) changable

-cut off map trading and trade routes stealing, or made it like that, u may know about that lands which you aknowledge from some portugal, but u can colonise it only when head there by youself, with some fleet, maybe w/out explorer...

-make possible to increase game time period with support of game engine, and not raping all inside files and changing all things in text.scv and such. I'm sure this will be done anyway, because of so many mods and scens proposed in community with different time gap

-made possible to hide things on overview map, such as troops, buildins, and mostly provinces names, for just clear view

-ability to order your onboard troops to reloading directly with moving of that fleet to some coast...if its possible..or if its there

-more random numbers in event scripting, not just to provinces so and for gold, tech, infl, population, and i mean all of presented numbers. Better if it would be some numbers possible range, from 1000 to 2000 population, or 5-7 infl, or 100-150 treasury, u know...

-more manufactory types, if they will be in game at all, some raw material manufactory, or some handicraft works...i dont know

-for cannons must be some resourses(iron and copper presence i think) and with better techs some artillery manuf building or something

-add event command for unit movement. Thus, with triggers of units presense, its numbers and maybe its leaders. It would be great battle maneuvering event packs with this :)

-add some crisis taxes when stab in down with something about +50(not 150 of course), along with wartaxes but so with rr rising instead of stab hit

-make some option for terra incognita, which give some time period of unexploreabilty :), for more histroical exploration, but with possibility to edit or remove it for some purposes(scens,mods or just fun)

-possibility to come out from fortresses its garrisons to fight, with half of morale maybe. Some silly rebels("415 man") grrr, on some far far colonised islands, they can stay to the end of days...And historically it would be more accurate then static guards. There appears many options to work with them, thus, like event commands and to where they must flee if their lost and so, but it must be done! :)

-loans appearing for many players as cheat, so gave option to AI offering that loans when their in wealth, to friendly countrie, and maka possible for human to take a loan from another country not just from bank...or just cut it all for more balance

-make diplomat personalities, with radom names(some randomnames.csv), or just some of them make personal and others as it was. Made male, female diplos for marriages...historical heirs...princes, princesses..historical weddings..hhehe..like in crusader knigs it will be i think :)

-add pls somehow refreshing... eeer...inside structure of event consequences, for those random provinces(mostly) and such. Because absurd, f.e, when your country have10 prov all with none state religion, you got some good inquisition or church reforms event, and it change with "conversation -2" only 2 or 3 prov, when 5 or more was scripted...it just repeat one province many time...not good for me.

-add possibility to hide some of event choices conseq. Its for human only of course, and can be opened any event file in just Notepad during the game, but i think for surprise it would be very good. Each player, i think, cant opening all events through all his games, and certanly cant remember all of them. You say this could be done by triggering another event w/out choices(some plague or curse..), but i talking about absolutely unforseen things - you with your dumb cabinet of ministers just cant to forseen all what going to happend.... :) like that

-made to troops and fleets revolt risc too, and going them rebelling and pirating, or seceding to overwhelming victorious enemy

-moving and transportationalong rivers must be different then normal, mostly in early period. So to rivers must be given nationality(as for coast waters), and when river presented two border nation which in war for that moment, river movement bonus must be not availible

-it would be great, give to armies and fleets some signs of excellence, not just some veteran or somthng, but what i mean - almost all european and asian, and later american, countries had their special, heroic and legendary armies or some military formation. Each with their own title, heraldy, brave traditions and history full of great victories. So, it would be fun to give to multivictorious super goodlucking army(about 50 win, or i dont know) , some bonuses, like extra morale, and better general ratings (like +1 to this ratings). Also give them some shield over it and some special view when selected. Wiser to made only one such flagman fleet and 2 or 3 that kind of army, which one of them from start of the scen maybe...ow yea, and make all of this totally eventable...:)

-sorry for spelling
 

unmerged(11002)

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three more small ones

1. Being able to destroy already built colonies (like trading posts put to any Colony with a different culture/religion even if its not a enemy occupied province. )

2. Alliances with Natives

3. Alliances with Rebels
 

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I'd like to add to "the wishlist":

Extend event engine to a much more advanced one. It should for instance be able compare relations between countries and create a royal marriage with the one with the highest relation. I really liked the trigger-system in StarCraft. Effect should be able to "set" values instead of increasing and decreasing, like set relation to +100, set basetax to 8, set native aggresiveness to 5. You get the point...


The fortification system needs to be revamped...
Like many others I also think that fortifications should have a maintence slider and that the troops should be paid upkeep. There should also be stockades for colonies for the price of 25 gold (perhaps). Stockades should only prevent natives from taking your colony. You can say that they are about one tenth in strength of the minimal fort. (When the colony becomes a city, upgrading to minimal would cost 25 gold less). What if forts increased in cost as the manufactories? Or just make larger forts extremly expensive!
 

unmerged(11002)

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Originally posted by Kaigon
What if forts increased in cost as the manufactories? Or just make larger forts extremly expensive!

Yes and they should be very expensive to mantain there should be less types of forts maybe only 3/4 (it makes more sense.) Also add I resource "Stone"(make it a very limited resource that can be gotten in two ways producion and trade between countries with very, very close relations(over 180)(or higher if they add more relation values.)) It was very important reseon that many huge Forts weren't realy made. Another was labor. Any fort bigger then small needs atleast 1,500 people to build it and should limit all the money that is earned in that province monthly(if your residents are building forts they can't make money for the state and.) The bigger the fort the longer it takes to build (time based on population (if you have a city of 700 it could take a while to make a small fort(5 years), but if the city ws 100,000 residents it while take 6 months. Also if a fort falls it decreases in strength by one.
 

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Things i want in EU3
1) New economic system, something like in Imperialism would be fine

2) New trade system. Trade resources between countries

3) Choose between free trade or merkantil policy. In the free trade part the computer would do most of the economic and trade things for your country, while in merkantil mode you would do it yourself.

4) A percentage system in the cities, rather then the only one religion per province. This could apply for ethnic as well.

5) A more united Holy Roman Empire in the beginning of the game (like if France declares war on Lorraine, the emporor may go to war as the holy roman empire. All the countries in the empire will then get a request to join the war, and does who dont will be banned from the empire (and the emperor will get a casus belli for quite long time). France could no not simply annex Lorraine, but rather gain Lorraine in a peace treaty with the hole empire).
But with one smashing victory, another country could as a part of a peace treaty after the reformation suggest the that the states of the Holy Roman empire should be able to choose their own religion (which means full independence). In history this was how the peace of Westphalia looked.

6) Peace congresses from the war when the Holy Roman Empire gets smashed (if it does). And then after all wars where then two blocks stands against each others.

7) Smaller armies before napoleon

8) More expensive fortresses

9) Less ability to simply move trough an enemy province with fortress without having to take it.

10) Would be nice to change the economic map a little. Make every province have many small tiles (like in civ) with different resources and terrain. The terrain and the resources would fit with the new economic system. Could also make higher possibilities for human investment in infrastrukture (roads, irrigation, mines, factories, ports). this would mean every province would no longer only produce one resource.

11) Using the map from Hearts Of Iron with all those provinces.

12) Removing of the one province annexation rule, and add something else for the balance.
 

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First, my suggestions for EU3 do not take away from the fact that Paradox has done great job overall. Also, congratulations to the admins, mods and all others concerned for running this exceptional forum.

As a disclaimer, I have not played EU2 as much as most other posters, so it is very possible that some of my requests could be accomodated by existing features/options. Having said that:

1) Don't extend time period forward. In fact, you should probably cut it back to sometime in the late 1700s at least as sieges didn't play much of a role in the Napoleonic period. Some people might be upset by this though, so you should probably keep the time period as it is now.

2) Please provide a pop-up summary screen at the end of each battle to give details on the outcome in terms of forces employed and casualties.

3) Unit morale should be heavily influenced by success/defeat in battle. Often armies developed confidence and a tradition of winning that was extremely decisive.

4) Unit effectiveness (in terms of fire and shock values) should also be a function of experience. This is in addition to the morale adjustment in 3) above. For this one, it shouldn't really matter whether the troops won or lost.

5) Leader generation should be less deterministic. At least allow the user to enable such a mode as an option. What I would like is for leader attributes to be somewhat random, but also influenced by the size of the country as well as the position of the DP sliders. It's wierd that now, if you start with a minor but are able to become a serious contender in Europe, you are stuck with virtually no exceptional leaders, even if you have shifted the DP sliders to favor quality, land, offensive doctrine, innovativeness, etc.

6) Cost of raising troops should be much less than now, and keyed to the tech level. At the beginning, they should be virtually free to build. They should be much more expensive to maintain, however. Also, attrition from marching (or even just staying in place) should be much higher than now. This is the single most ahistoric aspect of EU2 IMHO.

7) The diplomatic system is mostly ok as is, but I agree with the suggestion that vassals should be at different levels.

8) The religious system would be much improved if it were not an all-or-nothing business. The best system would be for each province to track each religion as a percent of population. Tolerance would influence gradual shifts in the mix, as well as missionary efforts.

9) Missionaries should not cost so much. This is totally unrealistic. They should continue to be constrained by availability driven by the DP sliders, but money should not be the main constraint on missionary efforts. Money does too much in the game as it is, IMO. I would apply this logic to colonists as well.

10) The whole economic system should be rethought from scratch. The whole business of sending merchants to CoT's particurly is neither entertaining nor realistic. By contrast, Imperialism's economic system was also not realistic, but at least had entertainment value.

11) The dynamics of city growth should be rethought also. First, they are too static. Now, if a city isn't big relatively speaking in 1419, there is zero chance that it can become so 400 years later. I'm afraid the "gain 5000 population" or "lose 1000 population" random events don't do much for me. Second, growth should be more influenced by policy choices. This would include public works, or developing a city as an education center, or economic policies. The role of manufacturies and mayors are a step in this direction, but are way too limited.

12) I'm afraid I don't like the current CoT system very much. I would rather it be not so "all-or-nothing" and also to be influenced by policy choices. One idea would be for each province to have a "trade radius" concept, that would grow or shrink based on events (random as well as historical) but also by public works and DP slider positions.

13) Population growth and economic performance should be influenced by the extent of military operations. For example, armies operating in a province (friend and foe alike) should have a negative impact due to foraging and pillage. Second, maintaining a large army removed productive workers from the labor force. Of course, getting them killed in battle should have an effect on population growth also.

That's all I can think of for now. Despite these criticisms, it's still a very good game and solid effort by Paradox.
 

unmerged(8082)

Corporal
Mar 5, 2002
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Almost forgot. No PTI. Instead, be realistic and make interior, undeveloped areas expensive and dangerous to explore and develop, so it basically isn't worthwhile in most cases.

Also, territories should become discovered broadly after a certain number of countries have done so. It is ridiculous as it is that territories are still TI in the 1700s just because you haven't been there yourself or stolen someone's rutters or plundered their capital.
 

unmerged(5822)

Moved on
Sep 20, 2001
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Is anyone summarizing all of this? If not, I'd like to volunteer for the job (lot of free time made available now because of a sibling deed most foul and mentioned elsewhere)... just point me to where I should make the summary post, and I'll get to it (no sooner than Tuesday though; got an exam in macroeconomics coming:(). Or perhaps an entirely new thread should be created, with the summary post being the first one in it (check out the AGC: Russia thread in the AGC forum if you don't know what I mean)?
 

unmerged(11002)

First Lieutenant
Sep 13, 2002
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Originally posted by Onslaught
Is anyone summarizing all of this? If not, I'd like to volunteer for the job (lot of free time made available now because of a sibling deed most foul and mentioned elsewhere)... just point me to where I should make the summary post, and I'll get to it (no sooner than Tuesday though; got an exam in macroeconomics coming:(). Or perhaps an entirely new thread should be created, with the summary post being the first one in it (check out the AGC: Russia thread in the AGC forum if you don't know what I mean)?

I did but I didn't up date it because no one looked at it its one page 12. I'll create a thread for it.
 

Blade!

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I was really impressed with the list you guys assembled. I did not see this, so forgive me if it has been mentioned:

I would like to see MUslim nations have the choice to switch religions from Sunni to Shiite. If Catholic Spain can convert to Protestantism, I am sure the Mamelukes "could" become Sunni.

I think that owuld be my biggest desire for change.

If the game were to really get expanded, I would like to see two different types of Buddhism, Mahayana & Theravadin, with Theravadins being able to be force converted to Hinduism, and Mahayana being able to switch with Confucian.
 
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