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Taylor

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I think this could be mighty fun. Just imagine. You're some small tribe that is on the brink of being annihilated by a ridiculously huge neighbor. What do you do? You MOVE! Hell yeah, you mobilize your population and you sail to Britain or you walk to Spain or to North Africa, whatever. I think it could be awesome.

And if you're lucky, you find a place under the sun to actually build up a kingdom and stuff.
 

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I suppose you could win it in the same way you can win an EU3 game. World conquest (omitting warfare entirely would be just daft), forming a historic empire (Charlemagne) or historic culture (starting as the Franks in 470 with the goal of becoming Old French speakers by 900), lead the Islamic conquests or try to claim your own Roman Empire to spite the Eastern Romans, whatever.
 
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jju_57

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I guess I like EU3 and HOI3 because you can create a super world power if you want to. A world power (even just Europe/Asia) in the dark ages would be really historically inaccurate. I mean most of the so called empires were really Khaganate or Caliphate based. One is a horde going from place to place for tribute and the other is just religious based. Ruling the world before mass communication is kinda hard.
 

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It'd be historically inaccurate to have the Iroquois conquer the world too, but that has happened in EU3 before. Plus, the big continental European empires (discounting colonies for the moment) of the EU3 timeframe are France, Charles V's Hapsburgia or whatever you want to call that motley collection of territories, Austria itself, the Ottomans and Russia. Poland-Lithuania and Spain could be added if you count countries that are just big-ish.

By comparison, from 476-1066 in Europe you've got the Frankish Empire, the Visigothic Kingdom, the Eastern Romans/Byzantines are still going quite strong at this time, the Bulgarians, Odoacer's Italy quickly followed up by Ostrogothic Italy and Lombardic Italy a century later. If you move the start date back to, say, 410, you can also include the later Western Roman Empire and Constantine III's Roman-Empire-in-Gaul-but-not-Gallic-Empire thing.

And what's so bad about playing as the Caliphate, or one of its divisions?
 

Autonomous

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Essentially Unplayable. I think it is almost more suited to TW and Barbarian Invasions than a Grand Strategy style.

Right, now, that's obviously the big problem that the entire design has to be built around, but I don't think it's insurmountable. What you need is a system with a big focus on methods of government and political capital, far more radical than what Paradox has done before. Something that completely shapes what you can do, rather than EU style flat modifiers. You also need to represent the fact that a ruler's power could vary wildly from place to place and people to people. This for true for many periods P'dox covers, but it's even more vital here.

Basically, it would be a game about the transition from hordes to kingdoms, and transformations in structures of power.

There is no tech development, no slow build up of your nation, no diplomacy.

Er, well, no. I think you're a little confused. We're talking about a period here that is five or six hundred years long, and, despite popular conceptions, changed radically over that period. (Which is the real difficulty in trying to make a game of it, I think; the sheer breadth of what you're trying to capture, coupled with the scarcity of sources).

Technological development did happen, rulers did try to develop their states and, yes, there was diplomacy.

Here would be a typical game. You either play a horde country like the Vikings or a small kingdom of 1-2 provinces that end up fighting the barbarians or paying them off. This would continue for 400 years or so. CK took the small kingdoms of less than one province and made them into EU3 countries of 4 or 5 provinces. EU3 takes those 4-5 provinces and turns them into nations of 100+ provinces. The dark ages takes a one province and tries to keep it at one province. Or maybe you take a country of 15 provinces and watch it fragment till only one province is left.

Again it sort of comes down to doing nothing and paying off hordes till you get a super duper ruler to gain some vassels. After his death everything starts to fall into ruins. Point is if the game is going to be historical then it has to have major mechanics that prohibit the forming of a big nation. If you do form a decent sized country the game mechanics have to devaste you with horde raiding (you are now rich), natural disasters or the loss of a ruler that through his personal strenghts caused the nation to be formed. And it's just my personal opinion but playing a game to basically have my creation destroyed is not that much fun.

Oh lord. "The dark ages takes a one province country and tries to keep it at one province." You had states expanding and collapsing and being invaded and expanding again all over. Sure, it was hard to make it last, but it wasn't something static and unchanging, it was highly dynamic.

You shouldn't be approaching this as, "Take land, job done." That's only half the story; the hard part is holding that land. You have to consolidate and integrate it. You have to try and take a disparate collection of conquered territories and turn them into a cohesive country.

One of EU's biggest problems is that, once you're large enough, there's little challenge and little to do, primarily because its modelling of this sort of thing is so anaemic.

I think the reason no one has made a dark ages game is because it just woulnd't be all that much fun to play.

Except, y'know, there is a Dark Ages game. It's called Great Invasions, and it's flawed, because it's old, and it's ugly, and its interface is clumsy, and it's underdetailed, and it has a (personally) tiresome bent towards historical determinism, but there's nothing in it to suggest there isn't a good game hiding underneath all that.

And there was our own Earl Uthred, whose "Dawn of the West" was advanced enough for a test game before he disappeared. And the ongoing "Dark Age Dynasties" project in the OT Forum.

So, there have been attempts, they're just painfully rare.

The bubonic plague hit twice for over 100 million dead. The black death was in the 1300's but the first round hit the Byzantine Empire around 540.

100 million? In the entire world, maybe. Europe in 1300 had a population of maybe 70 million, max, West and East- and this was after three centuries of booming population growth (the dark ages been a time of great agricultural expansion and overabundance of food).

The dark ages are "dark" because there's a lack of primary sources, and Petrarch wanted to paint himself as resurrecting a lost golden age.

The thing is these 'empires' were sort of in name only. They had to accept some laws and most of the time a change in religion but it was more like Charlemagne took the current king and had him killed or sent to a monestary. Then he put in place a new local ruler that reported to him. It was more like a bunch of vassels but the vassels could have rebels to rise up and then break away.

Heavy focus on individuals? Soft power, rebellious vassal states, fractious empires? SMELLS LIKE CRUSADER KINGS. And again: politicking, intrigue, diplomacy. Lots of stuff for players to do.

To be fair, some Germanic groups made a sincere effort at maintaining Roman ways of life and governing structure, not that they always succeeded. The Ostrogoths in particular should be commended for their efforts in Italy.

Yes, Italy under Odoacer was more or less a direct continuation of the Western Roman Empire. Or even a revitalisation, the Western Empire being so pitifully ineffectual by that time. Which is a general point; the Empire was in such a sorry state by Late Antiquity that its inhabitants often found themselves better off after it retreated from their lands than before.

I think the biggest focus of any 'Dark Ages'-centric game should be culture, rather than EU3's diplomacy & warfare or Victoria's economics & internal politics. The thing would be for barbarian kingdoms to accomodate the 'native' populations of whatever region they settle, deciding on whether or not to separate their own people from the Romanized natives (like the Vandals) or let them freely associate and gradually melt into the local Romantic populations, or choosing sides in debates about Arianism and Adoptionism.

YEEEEEEESS. Exactly; social and cultural development. And it should be something as simple as "I click this -> no more partible inheritance," you should need to build support for it, crush dissent, follow up to make sure it sticks... reform is a process.

I'm painfully aware I'm throwing a lot of stuff out here without backing it up. All my books on this stuff are in boxes, unfortunately. Well, I can see Anglo Saxon England on a stack over there, but it's kinda narrow focus. :p
 

Fishman786

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Guh! This would be a great thing. In fact, any game set in the dark ages would be great!
 

robb1993

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then there's reverse assimilation. the Norse and Danes settled in Northern England, Scotland, Ireland and Normandy to name but a few. And they assimiliated in all these areas for the most part. Likewise after a few generations the Normans stopped being Normans and became English.

this period of history has so much to be explored and so much potential for alternative history. And while i agree it should be impossible to build an empire from Gibraltar to Finland it should only be difficult for a single ruler with some luck to build a large area of control say maybe all or half of france. the challenge of the game would be keeping it together. Maybe the player gets to choose a single character and control the destiny of the nation and when that character dies he gets a choice of which son he will play and then try and maintain his fathers kingdom and crown. With the rest of the country being controlled by the AI just to represent how little control a king had over his vassals (king of france over the normans for example)

ambitious? obviously and it would rely on a competent AI system which doesn't make silly mistakes like we sometimes see in EU3 but i reckon if any developer was to make this i'd put it in the hands of Paradox.
 

Taylor

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When I said there was no Dark Ages games I didn't mean to say there weren't attempts, but instead there isn't a good one out there. Now the reason could be that the attempts were flawed but my gut says the time period is the reason. Here is my circumstantial evidence.

Look at games about WW1 and WW2. Which one has more that are good to great games? Of course WW2 wins. Why is that? IMO it is because WW2 was more fun to fight. See I would love to have a great game about the Civil War that was strategic. Problem is almost all attempts failed. A game called "The Civil War" came close but still fell short. Some wars and time periods are very hard to make into a game. WW1 was trench warfare and to many people this was not as fun as the warfare in WW2.

Age of Rome had many great games. They had warfare, expansion, diplomacy, trade, etc. But games based on the decline of the Roman Empire were not hits. Again its just my opinion but I think people like to play games where they can build up a nation and Like Alexander weap at the scope of what they built. Its not much fun ruling an empire that starts out big and you have to save it. And of course there has to be balance or possible balance. Going back to WW2 Germany lost but they came close. In HOI most players pick Germany over any other country. They want to take the 'underdog' (in terms of who lost historically) and change history. But it was also historically feasible that this could have happened. EU3 with the Incas ruling the world is one of the dumb design setbacks and all games have it to some degree. But that is more a limitation to the AI as in a MP game you could never rule the world as the Incas in EU3 or as Romania in HOI.

That brings me to the dark ages. What we do know about it historically is that all attempts at empires failed. For whatever reason barbarians dominated and attempts to bring culture and form a bigger state never lasted. To some playing as the Franks might be fun. You are basically nothing and fending of hordes. you get a great ruler or three who change things and you expand. They die off and you are back to a couple of losely tied kingdoms ruled by relatives. Or you lead a khan and form a state that is even worse then the GH in EU3 but is destined to fail. The only possible way to really form a lasting country of any size would be to ignore the history from this time period.

Some people play EU3 and other games and love to remain 3 to 5 provinces in size. But I think more people play to get much much bigger and rule either through trade, war or diplomacy. In Civilization do the players play to just stick around and not expand? Or do they try to be a big badass in their world? And this is why I'm saying it wouldn't be much fun. the history of the timeperiod is against you. It wants you to fail and if the game reflects history you would fail in the end.

Other NOTE: The 100 million is of course based on estimates but was for the whole world. The point I was making is that the bubonic plague in the 540 time period killed a higher percentage of the population then the Black Death did. Whole towns were emptied out and commerce, trade, state and infrastructure failed for a very long time.
 

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  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Deus Vult
  • Diplomacy
  • Dungeonland
  • East India Company Collection
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
Please discuss hypothetical games and wish-lists in the OT forum. Thanks.
 
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