Eu2Vic: Design Discussion

[maekh]

hm if people want to cheat, they will cheat anyway

 

[Golden_Deliciou]

hm if people want to cheat, they will cheat anyway

Well, it's also not unreasonable to have the absorbtion of large states add to BB.

 

[maekh]

Well, it's also not unreasonable to have the absorbtion of large states add to BB.

well, but when the absorbtion isn't under the players control it will have unwanted effects, i.e a moderatly popular country in EU2 becomes the subject of bb wars in victoria. However shouldn't be hard to add a variable merge_bb = 0/0.5/1 that can be changed, or a checkbox in the converter

 

[Sute]{h]

well, but when the absorbtion isn't under the players control it will have unwanted effects, i.e a moderatly popular country in EU2 becomes the subject of bb wars in victoria. However shouldn't be hard to add a variable merge_bb = 0/0.5/1 that can be changed, or a checkbox in the converter

Well you can release potential vassals, when you load your Victoria game reducing BB-points that way to compensate for BB-points gained by "inheiritage".

 

[Sute]{h]

I was think would it be possible to somehow have the converter convert the cultures a country possess in the end of EU2 instead of using the Vicky ones? This could for instance create better conversions of a England that defeated France in the Hundred Year War. We would still need some sort of lists for cultures which become multiple cultures in Vicky I know...

Another idea is regrading POP conversion... I was thinking of how we could get more mixed territories... And I thought let 50% of the POPs have the same culture as the province they originated from, and the other 50% be an equal mix of the primary culture of the surrounding provinces...

 

[Golden_Deliciou]

I was think would it be possible to somehow have the converter convert the cultures a country possess in the end of EU2 instead of using the Vicky ones? This could for instance create better conversions of a England that defeated France in the Hundred Year War. We would still need some sort of lists for cultures which become multiple cultures in Vicky I know...

This shouldn't be a problem. Just have a list of "normal" EU2 endgame cultures for each country, and only change the starting Victoria cultures if they're different. Otherwise we might end up giving Austria North German culture, etc.

Another idea is regrading POP conversion... I was thinking of how we could get more mixed territories... And I thought let 50% of the POPs have the same culture as the province they originated from, and the other 50% be an equal mix of the primary culture of the surrounding provinces...

Perhaps.

 

[Sute]{h]

This shouldn't be a problem. Just have a list of "normal" EU2 endgame cultures for each country, and only change the starting Victoria cultures if they're different. Otherwise we might end up giving Austria North German culture, etc.

Hmm... I would prefer that the converter looked up the cultures in the EU2 save, otherwise it won't solve the problem, which is when saves end with countries with cultures they don't normally possess (England with both French and English culture, etc. ).

The spilt culture problem could still require a taglist with cultures in the case of splitting... if we can't find some other way to solve this.

I must admit that the current POP converters biggest problem IMHO is when northern Germany ends up with provinces with South German culture, because their owned by Austria... My suggestion is too tie cultural conversion to provinces instead in the case of split cultures. That way northern Germany stay North German and southern Germany stay South German. If we ties the split culture problem to provinces rather than tags, we can use the primary culture of the countrys capital to determin which culture the country gets. Of course this creates a few countries with problems... Prussia comes to mind, since they possess both cultures... but rather that than the current problem IMHO. Prussia can always be granted the needed culture by event...

 

[Golden_Deliciou]

Hmm... I would prefer that the converter looked up the cultures in the EU2 save, otherwise it won't solve the problem, which is when saves end with countries with cultures they don't normally possess (England with both French and English culture, etc. ).

You're not following me. There should be a list of "normal" endgame cultures for each country included in the converter. The program then compares the national cultures in the save and only changes the Victoria cultures if the two differ.

I must admit that the current POP converters biggest problem IMHO is when northern Germany ends up with provinces with South German culture, because their owned by Austria... My suggestion is too tie cultural conversion to provinces instead in the case of split cultures.

Well, this only occurs in areas which are reasonably similar to one another anyway. If Austria dominates Germany then it's not unreasonable to imagine culture to be similar across the region. I don't think that Austrian Germans have that much more in common with Bavarians than they do with Hanoverians anyway- besides Catholicism.

 

[Sute]{h]

You're not following me. There should be a list of "normal" endgame cultures for each country included in the converter. The program then compares the national cultures in the save and only changes the Victoria cultures if the two differ.

Could work...

Well, this only occurs in areas which are reasonably similar to one another anyway. If Austria dominates Germany then it's not unreasonable to imagine culture to be similar across the region. I don't think that Austrian Germans have that much more in common with Bavarians than they do with Hanoverians anyway- besides Catholicism.

Hmm... prehaps but from that line of reasoning we should use only one German culture. Another option could be to have all Protestant German provinces become North German and all Catholic German provinces become South German, since religion seems to be the major disagreement between the two.

 

[Sute]{h]

Another idea is concerning Machine Parts... In my latest converted game nobody was anywhere near being able to produce Machine Parts. This made the development in the beginning very slow, and since the AI isn't able to actively pursue the needed tech in a sufficient manner I end up with the first and only Machine Part factory. I desided not to export Machine Parts, and my economy soared compared to everybody else, since they had no other source for Machine Parts.

Might I suggest that if a converted save doesn't contain countries with Machine Part factories, that the most advanced AI country (in the Latin tech group) gains a bonus Machine Part factory. This would mean that there will be at least some Machine Parts available.

 

[unmerged(18043)]

Might I suggest that if a converted save doesn't contain countries with Machine Part factories, that the most advanced AI country (in the Latin tech group) gains a bonus Machine Part factory. This would mean that there will be at least some Machine Parts available.

I'm not sure I see why you should restrict it to just that Latin Tech group. Maybe include the Orthodox tech group and then pick the highest AI in those.

It is reasonable to asume that if a major disruption of the 'normal' balance is created that the most advanced AI (I'm guessing your talking about Techs only) could be Either Russia, Hungary or Poland if France, England, and Spain are either wiped out or played by Human's.

Can the converter "See" which countries are AI controled upon conversion?

There should be a list of "normal" endgame cultures for each country included in the converter. The program then compares the national cultures in the save and only changes the Victoria cultures if the two differ.

Is that easier than simply looking up the culture's in the Save file? Sounds like double duty.

On the subject of Cultures does the converter translate Protostant German's into N. German's and Catholic German's into South? That would explain my Disparity in my converted Game.

I'm still not sold on the concept that State Culture's should only be based on "Non-Rebellious" cultures. In the example France is almost as Large as Prussia Proper and a good portion of Norther Italy is Prussian owned. Like I said without converting the pops there are almost as Many French as there are German's, If Paris had fell then I think it would be even if not in France's favor. If you throw in the Italian's that Prussia has <50% of it's population as German. I understand you're point about the British and Indian's but I don't see "Civilized" county's population in the same light as the Uncivilized. Hence France is a majot part of the European Union of Prussia.

But If the converter allowed the conversion of State Culture's I think it would make the disagreement mute, IE Those that want the normal S.C. would convert happily and those that feel that a large Latin culture % should be a SC could simply make it so In Eu2 by an event or whatnot. Then the converter woud handle the rest.

 

[Golden_Deliciou]

Hmm... prehaps but from that line of reasoning we should use only one German culture.

No. But the North/South Germans would easily be assimilated into the other group.

Another option could be to have all Protestant German provinces become North German and all Catholic German provinces become South German, since religion seems to be the major disagreement between the two.

A thought. Though one does get catholics in North Germany and vice versa.

Raises another question- does EU2Vic create Jewish POPs? A minor aspect I suppose...

 

[Golden_Deliciou]

Is that easier than simply looking up the culture's in the Save file? Sounds like double duty.

The reason why I prefer this method is it removes the problems with seperating the big EU2 cultures (German, Scandinavian, etc.) in 99% of cases.

If you throw in the Italian's that Prussia has <50% of it's population as German. I understand you're point about the British and Indian's but I don't see "Civilized" county's population in the same light as the Uncivilized. Hence France is a majot part of the European Union of Prussia.

But Prussia's not an enlightened liberal democracy, is it? It's a conservative monarchy with a Germanic base. It's much more like the multi-national Austrian Empire than the real Prussia. Hence- as for VIP Austria- it should only have German cultures.

Of course, this opens up another can of worms. Tolerant states in Victoria should get more production from minorities.

Those that want the normal S.C. would convert happily and those that feel that a large Latin culture % should be a SC could simply make it so In Eu2 by an event or whatnot. Then the converter woud handle the rest.

One could make such an event for Victoria- or even edit the save- if one wanted.

 

[unmerged(18043)]

The reason why I prefer this method is it removes the problems with seperating the big EU2 cultures (German, Scandinavian, etc.) in 99% of cases.

Of course, this opens up another can of worms. Tolerant states in Victoria should get more production from minorities.

I agree with both of those statements. As to the rest however this is my Opinion.

I have a more evidence as to why a large % Population is grounds for a culture to be state.

Tiny Nation of Lorraine.

1st Point:

It start's Eu2 with Both German and French State Cultures. Why? The only province it controls is French. Probably becase historically the region has been a mix of both French and Germans. Hence a large population of Both. It was of vital importance in at least 3 Wars. Obviously the France-Prussian where at the end it was ceded to Germany. When WW1 came around and France found itself on "The winning" side it was adamant that they lands be returned to France. And it was a reason, albeit small for the German invasion of WW2. It's even considered Part of Germany's "National" Province's in HoI. So you can "Demand Territory" to acquire it in HoI.

2nd Point:

I'm unaware what Lorraine turns into when you convert it to Vicky, but for a second let's assume that since Lorraine can 'become' France in Eu2 that you guys have decided it gets absorbed into France. If a skilled player were able to acquire the French Lands and German lands. Why Lorraine should lose the German Culture?

Now as to your argument that Prussia is not an "Enlighten Democracy". You're argument is faulty. You're basing that assumption based on Historical facts. Since the Eu2 game that is being converted is most likely Ahistorical you can't do that. Since certain sliders affect the government that you get upon conversion you can't base it on what "Historically" happened.

Now you rebutted that The Scot's and Welsh did not revolt during the Vicky Timeframe. Again you’re using historical fact to argue a fantasy setting.

There is only 1 culture on the main "British Isle" and that is 'British'. Now I won't argue the fact that it was most likely a shortcut by Paradox to simply make only one Culture but since they did it ends any argument about whether the UK has Scottish and Welsh as SC's.

As for the UK's SC's they also have 'Anglo-Canadian' as a state culture, and you can't tell me that the Canadian population in Vicky had a large voice in the British Empire. Historically or not.

Now As to other Multicultural countries take Non-Vip Austria. It has S. German, Hungarian, Slavonic, and Czech State Cultures. I know that in ViP it was changed to just S. German but since the converter goes both ways and was designed with Vanilla in mind.

The facts both historically and ahistoracly back my views that SC's can revolt. Historically the Slav's did revolt and the Hungarian's were "getting to it". Now Ahsitorically as I think MOST Paradox games play out, there is good chances of Czech revolts, Hungarian revolts and ofc Slav revolts. So the statement that SC's are non revolvers is in error.

Now I do think that the "Default" SC's should be used unless there is sufficient reason to change them. But since the Converter converts State Cultures into the "main" culture as in the example of Sweden Holding Denmark's lands making Scandavian into Simply Swedish Culture then wouldn't the converter turn the French and German SC's in to German?

So to sum all that up into something short

1. Can't argue what "Did" happen in a game that allows you to change it to what "could" happen.
2. It is a shame that the converted doesn't convert the State Cultures.
3. being a State Culture does not mean that the population is neither Passive nor 'Assimilated' into the greater Empire.
4. If Indeed Loraine conquered both France and Germany than it would stand to reason that it's "Cultures" should indeed remain Intact.
5. I believe that if you have a good % of a {Latin Tech Group} Population that has land Borders with your Capitol than it should be a State Culture.

 

[Sute]{h]

Hmm... I just got an idea of a quite alternative way to determine state cultures, don't know what I think of it quite yet though...

The number of cultures a country gets is determined by their Innovative slider. A very innovative country gets more than a very narrowminded one.

Innovative 10: 4 cultures
Innovative 8-9: 3 cultures
Innovative 6-7: 2 cultures
Innovative 0-5: 1 culture

The first culture should always be determined by the cultural majority in the nations capital. The other cultures should be determined by the procentage of the non-colonial population they consists of. Meaning a country gains the state cultures of their largest minorities first.

This system would be very dynamic, but could perhaps lead to some wierd non-historical cultural setups. On the other hand a major point of this converter is to allow people to play unhistorical empires...

 

[unmerged(18043)]

This system would be very dynamic, but could perhaps lead to some wierd non-historical cultural setups. On the other hand a major point of this converter is to allow people to play unhistorical empires...

Agreed.

I do like your Idea though.

 

[Golden_Deliciou]

I'm unaware what Lorraine turns into when you convert it to Vicky, but for a second let's assume that since Lorraine can 'become' France in Eu2 that you guys have decided it gets absorbed into France. If a skilled player were able to acquire the French Lands and German lands. Why Lorraine should lose the German Culture?

It's a bit of a wild example. Lorraine would have to exist in 1819 whilst France does not. Unlikely.

Now as to your argument that Prussia is not an "Enlighten Democracy". You're argument is faulty. You're basing that assumption based on Historical facts.

No. I'm basing it on the fact that there was no such thing as an enlightened Democracy in 1836. Each state favoured a particular racial or cultural group.

There is only 1 culture on the main "British Isle" and that is 'British'. Now I won't argue the fact that it was most likely a shortcut by Paradox to simply make only one Culture but since they did it ends any argument about whether the UK has Scottish and Welsh as SC's.

Since Scotland can exist in Victoria it makes sense to have Scottish culture. But- since 19th Century British history is full of successful Scots- that would be a British state culture.

As for the UK's SC's they also have 'Anglo-Canadian' as a state culture, and you can't tell me that the Canadian population in Vicky had a large voice in the British Empire. Historically or not.

Canada was largely self-governing, and Canadians were not excluded from opportunities. Really, the reality is better represented when the Dominion Canada wins independence.

Now As to other Multicultural countries take Non-Vip Austria. It has S. German, Hungarian, Slavonic, and Czech State Cultures. I know that in ViP it was changed to just S. German but since the converter goes both ways and was designed with Vanilla in mind.

Yeah. Vanilla is wrong.

But since the Converter converts State Cultures into the "main" culture as in the example of Sweden Holding Denmark's lands making Scandavian into Simply Swedish Culture then wouldn't the converter turn the French and German SC's in to German?

Two wrongs don't make a right. Danish culture should be seperated, regardless of who owns Denmark.

 

[unmerged(18043)]

It's a bit of a wild example. Lorraine would have to exist in 1819 whilst France does not. Unlikely.

So Did Lorriane have an Enlightened Democracy in 1419? Feel free to explain how Lorriance can have French and German in 1419 but no-one can in 1836?

No. I'm basing it on the fact that there was no such thing as an enlightened Democracy in 1836. Each state favoured a particular racial or cultural group.

Again Your assuming based on the 'Historical' events. The French lands were Diplo-Annxed into Prussia from Bourbonis who recieved the lands when they rebeled against France. It was a boring game for both the British and the French as they spent most of their time in Rebellions.

Since Scotland can exist in Victoria it makes sense to have Scottish culture. But- since 19th Century British history is full of successful Scots- that would be a British state culture.

There is no scotish culture in Vicky. Can you also explain how Scotland gets Irish and British Cultures? Were they an Enligtened Democracy?

Two wrongs don't make a right. Danish culture should be seperated, regardless of who owns Denmark.

Agreed on that point.

 

[Golden_Deliciou]

So Did Lorriane have an Enlightened Democracy in 1419? Feel free to explain how Lorriance can have French and German in 1419 but no-one can in 1836?

The reason Lorraine has both is because it's a tiny country which didn't really represent any particular cultural group. All its subjects were equal- equal, that is, in their subservience to the local Duke.

Such states do exist in 1836- in Germany. However it's a failure of the system that these states continue to have these properties even if they grow larger.

Again Your assuming based on the 'Historical' events. The French lands were Diplo-Annxed into Prussia from Bourbonis who recieved the lands when they rebeled against France.

I don't see how this is relavent.

There is no scotish culture in Vicky.

I know. But I can see a case for one being made.

Can you also explain how Scotland gets Irish and British Cultures? Were they an Enligtened Democracy?

No. The game is just wrong- Scotland shouldn't have Irish culture.

 

[unmerged(18043)]

Let me Guess something and you tell me If I'm right, because I may be banging my head against a wall if I am.

Are you of the opinion that no country should have more than one state culture?

The only possible exceptions being the US, OE, and perhaps the UK?

As to your statement that

Again Your assuming based on the 'Historical' events. The French lands were Diplo-Annxed into Prussia from Bourbonis who recieved the lands when they rebeled against France.

Is relevant.

Did they join together? Did you get a "harmonious union" event that made you inherit France?

Since it was a Diplo-Annex and it wasn't even with France proper. They Rebelled against France. So I fail to see why they would view the German's as Opressors. Nor do I see why they wouldn't hold positions in goverment.