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HolisticGod

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Mats,

There is no Portuguese in vanilla.

The "standards" applied to all countries? You want after-the-fact edits to countries that have not been ridiculously hampered by MyMap (because it's a singleplayer, not multiplayer, scenario). On what basis? I don't oppose giving the Germans German culture, nor giving the Italians Italian culture, nor giving the Scandinavians Scandinavian culture. Some players might, however, point out that these edits should not be done after the game has started. If they do, I think that's fair.

Various edits were done for various countries to account for MyMap's purpose being singleplayer historicism, not multiplayer balance or playability. These are the edits I felt were appropriate for Castille (and I'm happy to switch with you or anybody else-they're appropriate no matter who plays the country). I mentioned various things that should be done for other countries, but those things weren't done. And now here we are.

The MyMap creators divided the world into more realistic cultures. This is great in singleplayer. In multiplayer, however, it raises serious problems. For Castille, it's very simple. If France is united, as we generally assume it will be, MyMap leaves it stronger than it was before, with additional provinces that have not been divided by culture. Spain already struggles to match France's manpower, as it should, but Iberia, which is culturally almost uniform (after the Berber events) is suddenly broken into five cultures, of which it has two. Again, great in SP (Spain is still culturally fragmented). Not great in multiplayer.

I felt this should be corrected, as well as various cultural fracturings in Germany, Italy, the Ottoman Empire and Scandinavia, and that's what I thought you were proposing. Instead, you seem to want to give everybody (but Castille, obviously) extra cultures, including far more than Castille was given, not on the basis of restoring a natural balance but so everybody gets a little treat. Perhaps before the game started, this would have been debatable. After the game has started, though, it's senseless.

As long as nobody objects, I think it's fair to fix the cultural fragmentation for the sake of balance, which is the basis (whether you agree with it or not) of my proposed edits for Castille. Simply dolling out cultures is quite different.

EDIT: And incidentally, I didn't propose the edits because I didn't think Castille was "powerful enough." You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

I proposed all sorts of fixes for multiple countries, if less than I would have if I'd known about the game more than a day in advance. I questioned the choice of scenario even when I was playing a country that arguably benefits from it. I do not now argue, and have never argued, for rules or edits simply because they are to my benefit. I argue for rules and edits that I think produce a balanced, realistic game with the best chance of success, and that the emphasis, in this case, was on the country I was playing (although I spent two hours arguing with John last night about how the inflation would impact smaller countries and the disparities it would create, despite playing the country just about least likely to suffer for the rule) is a matter of time. I had twenty four hours to look at what I think is a fundamentally broken scenario for MP and propose changes. I looked to my own country first.

The culture setup creates some problems. I said they should be fixed before the game started. Only Castille's were. If you now want to fix those problems, and nobody objects, I'm with you. But don't compare apples (Middle German to the Germans, Norwegian to Sweden, etc.) to oranges (Swiss for everyone!).

And I'll happily switch countries with you, Mats, and support exactly the edits for Castille that were done.
 
Last edited:

King John

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HG, the complaint Mats is making is in regards to Portuguese and Basque, not any of the other three. Portugal is given more tax base and manpower on this map than it has on a vanilla. The effect of the cultural division removes these extras, so that, if another power such as Castille takes over Portugal, they don't retain the boosts. Since the area never needs to be converted, the loss or retention of these extra boosts is all that this pertains to, not the loss of something that Spain traditionally has in a vanilla game.

As for Basque, I beg to differ. One province is Basque in vanilla: Navarre, and I'm pretty sure Spain doesn't have the culture there. While Basque on this map encompasses a larger space than in vanilla, that space also runs into traditionally French territory. Not something that should considered to impact the balance between those countries, and at least not in any meaningful way.

However, with Spain lacking Granadan culture, they are balanced out. I had been thinking, when I granted the culture edits, that you meant Granadan in the mix, but since it does not, and these are wrong religion provinces, things are alright, as far as I see. You'll have to deal with converting them, or take the hits you get in the events, whatever they are.

I would like to just leave the rest as it is. Castille's increased resources affect me more than anyone else, as his prime neighbor(we can probably assume that I won't be annexed at this point). Therefore, if he has an unfair advantage, it is primarily my problem. And I just don't care that much. Not as much as I care about avoiding another 2+ hour argument! Ya'll should let it be, and chalk it up as HG's reward for being an adamant masterdebater.

But if the group is insistent, I'll go along with these other edit requests. I'll take none for France, because I have contempt for all of these little nitpickings, and I am not worried at all by the small gains of other nations, whether Austria, Sweden or Castille. In terms of historical accuracy, which on this map I really prefer to preserve, I'm against them, as I was with Castille's edits, but it is a small concession if it is what's required to end grievances over inequality.
 

HALNY (HAL)

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Actually Poland with Silesian culture will be very historical ;)

As to Sweden, I think it definitively need additional cultures. Only swedish is giving very little. Just take a look at my population and MP, so at least cultures should be an asset.
 

martmol

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would love to play any nation. is portugal free?
 

admiral drake

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If you are going pro-culture, I suggest the following:

Sorbian to BB and Austria.
Silesian to BB, Austria and Poland.
Middle German either removed and split between Upper and Lower German, or given to both BB and Austria.
Swiss to Milan, Austria and France.
Alsatian to France, Burgundy, Milan and Austria.

Although personally I am more for the idea of removing Basque and Portuguese for Castile instead.
dont forget south italian to venice & milan
 

HolisticGod

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Aladar,

Don't be too hasty...

Perhaps a human wouldn't choose "break vassalage" in all these crazy events.

Of course, perhaps a human wouldn't choose "accept annexation" in a few years either...

Martmol?
 

SorelusImperion

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I'd like to bring up the topic of a possile addition of another culture to "Persia". It's hard to do much with half of my provinces poor and the other half beeing wrong culture. A stopgap solution might be giving me Arabian culture (for the Iraqi provinces I have)untill I become Persia.
 

Pepsi_max

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Noone tell you that you're going to lose all those provinces by event to Ak Konyulu iirc ?
 

HolisticGod

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HG, the complaint Mats is making is in regards to Portuguese and Basque, not any of the other three.

As for Basque, I beg to differ. One province is Basque in vanilla: Navarre, and I'm pretty sure Spain doesn't have the culture there. While Basque on this map encompasses a larger space than in vanilla, that space also runs into traditionally French territory. Not something that should considered to impact the balance between those countries, and at least not in any meaningful way.

John, Castille starts the MyMap scenario with Basque.

This is why I find the objections to the edits overboiled. Mats thinks Castille should lose "Portuguese and Basque" when Basque is one of the cultures with which Castille starts unedited. People shout "Spain doesn't get Portuguese even in vanilla!" There is no Portuguese in vanilla.

Would you instead argue that Castille should not have Catalan? Perhaps if any of the critics studied the setup before posting, they would have. But Castille receives Catalan by event anyway.

The only culture that was actually added to Castille was Portuguese.

HG, the complaint Mats is making is in regards to Portuguese and Basque, not any of the other three. Portugal is given more tax base and manpower on this map than it has on a vanilla. The effect of the cultural division removes these extras, so that, if another power such as Castille takes over Portugal, they don't retain the boosts. Since the area never needs to be converted, the loss or retention of these extra boosts is all that this pertains to, not the loss of something that Spain traditionally has in a vanilla game.

Both England and France gain by the new map. Spain loses (significantly, especially in the early game). What little Portugal has actually been boosted (and again, people should study the map before make overheated claims) compensates a bit for this imbalance. I made that argument. You were free to accept or reject it, but now done is done.

And I find it a bit difficult to face charges that this was all egregiously unfair by folks who don't even know what cultures were added.
 

SorelusImperion

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Noone tell you that you're going to lose all those provinces by event to Ak Konyulu iirc ?

Only if I sit idly by and allow that to happen without taking countermeasures and even then it's quite a bit till that moment comes.

BTW an event that was supposed to happen did not trigger:


#The Jalayrids#
event = {
id = 266006
trigger = {
NOT = { owned = { province = 508 data = -1 } }
exists = BAS
}
random = no
country = QAR
name = "The Jalayrids"
desc = "The collapse of the Il-Khanate led to the formation of many successor states. The most succesful of these would become the legacy of Hasan the Jalayir, a governor of Turkey. His descendents would rule Azerbaijan and the Western half of Iran until 1374 when the Qara Koyunlu declared their independence and took Kurdistan and later Tabriz. These two nations would find themselves swept over by the might of Timurlane. However when Timurid hegemony receded, the Jalayirids remained permanently stunted allowing the Qara Koyunlu to overthrow the Jalayrids and annex the last of their lands in 1431."
date = { day = 21 month = december year = 1429 }
offset = 30
style = 1
action_a ={
name = "We tire of their existence!"
command = { type = relation which = BAS value = -400 }
command = { type = INF which = -1 value = 5000 }
command = { type = CAV which = -2 value = 2500 }
command = { type = addcore which = 508 } #Basrah
command = { type = addcore which = 1723 }
command = { type = addcore which = 1724 }
command = { type = addcore which = 1736 }
command = { type = addcore which = 1719 }
command = { type = breakvassal which = BAS }
#command = { type = ai which = "QAR-basrah.ai" }
}
action_b ={
name = "We will only be tolerant for so long"
command = { type = relation which = BAS value = -200 }
command = { type = INF which = -2 value = 1000 }
command = { type = CAV which = -1 value = 500 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = BAS value = 240 }
command = { type = addcore which = 508 } #Basrah
command = { type = addcore which = 1723 }
command = { type = addcore which = 1724 }
command = { type = addcore which = 1736 }
command = { type = addcore which = 1719 }
command = { type = breakvassal which = BAS }
#command = { type = ai which = "QAR-basrah.ai" }
}
action_c ={
name = "But they've been so faithful"
command = { type = relation which = BAS value = 50 }
command = { type = alliance which = BAS }
}
}
 
Last edited:

HolisticGod

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Sorelus,

Weren't you dropped at some point? That's probably when it fired. Events aren't checked by the engine for completion, only firing, so if you're dropped and never hit A, B, C, whatever, it's logged anyway.

If that's the case, it should be triggered manually (since it has a single date, deleting it from the log won't help).
 

King John

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Actually, lets just add a few cultures. Err a little on the side of liberality, perhaps, but I'll be more comfortable with that than seeing these countries too weak. While North and South German are different, and Danish and Swedish are different, and so on, they're far more similar than Swedish and Russian, or German and Arabic, and yet the penalty of owning an Arabic province, as Prussia, would be the same as to owning a high German province. I think France, having been a more centralized country for a while, and historically continuing to throughout this period, is more justified in having a homogenous culture than these others, but maybe not by that much. Another argument for leaving them without is that these countries, Austria, Brandenburg, Sweden and so on, are not historically supposed to occupy all that territory. So the balance you end up having is different, if they benefit from all the MP, than what you would expansion to occur along a historical basis- i.e the minors remaining intact. OTOH, many of them would have campaigned in alliances with their big neighbors, who asserted a lot of influence over them.

I was looking at the map in the 1419 save and counting province MP. It's not the base level, just what's shown after population modifiers. France has roughly low 40s, low German has low 20s, Middle German about a dozen. That's all I counted. It seems that Germany has a little more MP than France overall, but because population is low across the board, subtracting 1 MP from any province results in a loss of most of the provs' MP. I don't know how the numbers stack up in Sweden or Italy. They're probably about historical.

Much as I hate to open a can of worms on this, if we're going to add cultures, we better do it now, and there is fair justification for some of them. In the next game, if these countries seem to have too many resources, we can talk about leaving them out. So, adding along the lines of what HG has said. German for the Germans. Italian for the Italians. Danish and Norwegian for Sweden. Brythonic for England. I'm not sure what else. I only want to do those that make sense historically. Austria gets Hungarian later on, I assume. I don't really think the OE should get more cultures in that area, unless they're already coming via event. And I assume it's getting Arabic at some point. If not, that would be one to add.

Sorelus, you wanted to play Kara instead of Poland. I think you can hold on until you become Persia. Triggering this event sounds ok, though.
 

HolisticGod

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John,

What I propose (someone please correct this if I've over- or under- estimated the values of the cultures, as I don't have MyMap on this machine and am not at home):

1. Prussia - Silesian, Middle German (don't think High German is necessary-correct me if I'm wrong-because of the added provinces)
2. Austria - Middle German (not Silesian-not historical, maybe give it to Poland-because it gets Balkan cultures), Magyar, Slovak/Slovenian/Whatever
3. Sweden - Danish (maybe Norwegian, too, depends on how much Denmark has been boosted and what the impact on naval support is)
4. Burgundy - Dutch (if it does not in fact have it-I vaguely recall this from the session)
5. Ottoman Empire - Slovak or whatever it's called, maybe Croatian (not opposed to more cultures than this, but Pepsi was and its neighbors may object; Arabic comes by event)
6. Milan - South Italian (this is very bad for Spain, take note)
7. Venice - South Italian
8. Kara - Persian (does it not have Persian right now?)
9. Poland - This One I Don't Know At All and Can't Look, But It Should Have What It Has In Vanilla If It's Going to Be Played

Please take note, Mats, that virtually all of these edits are more valuable than the one given to Castille. I think them entirely fair nonetheless.

More than this should not be done after game start, in my view, and I certainly oppose just giving countries cultures to give them cultures.

OH.

And John, do you have a moment for ICQ? I have something very funny to tell you. :D
 

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John,

And what is Bythonic on this map?
 

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Brythonic is what we have in Wales, Cornwall, and Brittany. Those suggestions look about on par. There are a lot of cultures in the Balkans comprising what is usually 'slavonic', but if croatian is given, I think that is about enough.
 

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Oh, really? As long as it's not Scotland or Ireland, England should definitely get that.

I am very afraid of English naval support, but that is a problem for another game. :D