EU2 source code released

[unmerged(40707)]

Only solution is having condition(s) moddable if possible. Some mods could then be "harder" and some others could use standard rules or even make them "easier".

from this observation and a few more i have a feeling that i will be sticking with the present eu2 engine

Which ones?

Goal of the expansion is not to make the game harder but more flexible, enjoyable (with annoying bugs fixed and enhanced/new features), and more open for modders.

 

[Blaster]

For example, there could be a province-size threashold. No country six provinces or larger, perhaps.

lol that would realy make me quit playing eu2

 

[Canenald]

I perfectly like the diplo-annexation the way it is. Diplo-annexations are, together with wars and inheritances, supposed to represent the forming of nations that took place during EU2 time. It would be a huge mistake to disable or tamper with diplo-annexation in a historical mod like AGCEEP. Still, it could be added as an option for other mods.

 

[unmerged(15247)]

That's true.

But I'd hope there would be some intellegent discussion about it.

This game attracts different players for different reasons. Some like to be able to blitzkrieg their way to world domination (something no real world nation has gone even 10% of the way to acheiving).MattyG

you right , that is the reality and that is why we have a GAME to alterate that

these players find game mechanics that impede this to be an annoyance, not a challenge. Others are more interested in seeing historical outcomes acheived. Others like the role-playing feel. There are many others, and I think the point is clear. Certainly the game should not be altered to suit the style of play of one niche.MattyG

you end up agreeing with me BUT , you mentioned in your pprevious post that you want "diploannex" be an option. however you add that it should be MADE HARDER. now that lives basicaly an option ONLY on your point of view, does not??????????????????...so you contradict yourself. or attempting in changing the arguments direction? i repeat, anywhere in life, how can there be an option in anything, if it would be a restricted one?? this sounds more like a "democracy" where the people at the top( read moddirs in this instance, no pun intended) know what is best for the "poor" folk bellow them simplly becouse they have the information(S). so they end up doing things their own way, many with the strong belief that what is right for them must be right for others as well. an ego complex every human being has, but not as bad if the "host" itself is aware of it.

ah and if i want "seeing historical outcomes acheived" i am going to read a BOOK, but you see, sometimes i get bored of that and i play eu2. this point of yours makes my point exactly, and shows your modding side of the equation, where in order to create you NEED to observe. nothing wrong with that, but you can NOT create something on your liking and expect everyone else to enjoy it. look, as a clear example; many months ago you pointed to me that i am the only interegnnum player that does not like the break-away random event. VALID point but when you made a couple of polls there were ONLY about 10 responses from wich 5 or so are the ones working on it...so all of a sudden the numbers matter, if you know what i mean . if you want to restrict it more as gameplay values, the go ahead, it is your choice. all i am saying is that do not expect me to embrace that annoyance as well. as a matter of a fact, if you noticed, i stoped long ago making comments withing your forum section becouse i got convinced that there is no point for me to do so

Consider what some of the problems are for EU2. For some, it is the lack of religions. Adding more was, I believe, placed highest among the ten more important things to add/change in EU2 in a submission to Johan. This could be changed now, I believe. Does this mean that EU2 is going to be worse off, becuae there could be more religions added? In some people's minds, yes, I'm sure they won't like it. Too much complication being added, perhaps. Adding game features/potentials will not please everyone, but that's no reason for the status quo.

MattyG

maybe you should develop this as an SCIENTIFIC project? complications are great but not when they take away its entretainment values by getting annoying commands and impediments only to get a FEEL it is harder without actually beeing so ( for anyone inteligent enough to IDENTIFY and realize the algorithm without necessarry having the modding skils ).

1. Blobbing by the ai is something I read more complaints about that almost any other aspect of EU2, regardless of mod. Blobbing is chiefly acheived through DA by the ai, which it appears to do with greater ease than players (this may not be the reality: source code access might quickly dispel this sense).

MattyG

did you ever think that those comments are made by the very people you disagree with? for a novice blobbing ai is an inpediment becouse they have not yet MASTERED all the economic implications of the actions they are taking just think a moment, do not not "jump" right back at me here.blobbing ai becouse it makes wars HARDER unless you are an "expert" that knows the "tricks" ( such as always and frequantlly send 1-2k in the ai's capital so to deter the very ai from actually sieging any of your provinces ) you see, beeing able in fixing such TYPICAL ai behaviour would automatically make "bllobing" not an issue anymore since no "novice" or "expert" will be able to count on the above mentioned ai behaviour.

bllobing is GREAT becouse it allows any player to take advantage of that in more then one way. and it is funny that in real life empires got bigger using such pretext as coming to the aid of "minors" only so they would be able to keep those territories for themselves in the end. so your argument here is again contradictory . you always stress that the player has too many "free meals" and all of sudden you have an issue with the ai beeing able to diplo annex easier

2. Diploannexation tries to approximate historical events/processes, such as the absorbtion of Brittany by France, or even the formation of Great Britain (though I can't say that the relationship between Scotland or Ireland or Wales with England at the time was 190+ :rofl: ). However, it occurs much too often, and can see even very large states being absorbed. I can't think of a state larger than 5 provinces (on the vanilla map) that was DA in the real world, and it certainly wasn't through the process of RM and strong relations.

MattyG

hmm matty the reality is that diplo annexation as you mentioned is impossible;
why?

even without beeing a "modder" i can tell you that the acceptance for an annexation offer ALWAYS has to deal with the economic ratio between the 2 nations( overlord and vassal). after 30 years of such relation this is the only aspect that counts. the "army in capital" or "army ratio" or who knows what other impressions are myths. under 30 years of such relation, the only thing added to the question is the "roll of the dice"; the monarch diplomatic skills DO matter but only as an adjustment to the ratio itself and not the other way around . rolls of the dice are IMPORTANT becouse they reflect real life possibilities . what i mean by this is that consider a nation wants to diplo another but the overlord meets fierce oposition from some "fanatic" stubborn pro- independence vassal. and that is best shown by a roll of the dice trick

regarding this i suspect agceepr has already made diploannexation harder becouse you get a 1 province vassal breaking vassalization when attemting to annex even if that 1 province is very poor and the economic ratio is wayyyy above requierments.( now THAT RATIO i would be more then intreasted to find out in the codes as what EXACTLLY the number is....). how i know this is becouse it is always working upon rehost.... also to this chapter, vassaling a nation that has been somebody's else vassal previouslly almost never works unless rehosting. more like ai getting "stuck" and would be nice to have that fixed.

another reason how i know that the above have been tempered with? becouse generally game crashes on such circumstances when "quitting" nd wanting to start from "save" or outosave again...

While the ideas I offered for tightening it might not work, there are certainly other ways. For example, there could be a province-size threashold. No country six provinces or larger, perhaps.

MattyG

again you end up on a restrictionarry note . as somebody else mentioned as well here, i will not be playing with such drastic intrusion and modifications that take away my "rights". consider this as a similar point towards the "net neutrality" issues we BOTH have here in canada .

the economic ratio requierment is good as it is as a TECHNICAL application for giving logarithmic and arithmetic results. now, how players will interpret that will be diffrent but the source code will still be a code even if a modified one

change is always good and many times needed for self--worth aspects. however it must be always based on precedents and only ammened. call me a TRUE progressive-conservative if you wish

 

[unmerged(15247)]

Only solution is having condition(s) moddable if possible. Some mods could then be "harder" and some others could use standard rules or even make them "easier".

Which ones?

Goal of the expansion is not to make the game harder but more flexible, enjoyable (with annoying bugs fixed and enhanced/new features), and more open for modders.

sorry, my bad, i was reffering to matty' previous comments such as exploration restrictions. valid opinions, but when he sneaked the diplo annexations issues i felt that he jumped the horse and i needed to do my part of "democracy" by commenting on that and uphold my rights to "freedom"

 

[MichaelM]

hmm matty the reality is that diplo annexation as you mentioned is impossible;
why?

even without beeing a "modder" i can tell you that the acceptance for an annexation offer ALWAYS has to deal with the economic ratio between the 2 nations( overlord and vassal). after 30 years of such relation this is the only aspect that counts. the "army in capital" or "army ratio" or who knows what other impressions are myths. under 30 years of such relation, the only thing added to the question is the "roll of the dice"; the monarch diplomatic skills DO matter but only as an adjustment to the ratio itself and not the other way around . rolls of the dice are IMPORTANT becouse they reflect real life possibilities . what i mean by this is that consider a nation wants to diplo another but the overlord meets fierce oposition from some "fanatic" stubborn pro- independence vassal. and that is best shown by a roll of the dice trick

regarding this i suspect agceepr has already made diploannexation harder becouse you get a 1 province vassal breaking vassalization when attemting to annex even if that 1 province is very poor and the economic ratio is wayyyy above requierments.( now THAT RATIO i would be more then intreasted to find out in the codes as what EXACTLLY the number is....). how i know this is becouse it is always working upon rehost.... also to this chapter, vassaling a nation that has been somebody's else vassal previouslly almost never works unless rehosting. more like ai getting "stuck" and would be nice to have that fixed.

another reason how i know that the above have been tempered with? becouse generally game crashes on such circumstances when "quitting" nd wanting to start from "save" or outosave again...

What MattyG is talking about is when, say, France forcevassalizes and diploannexes England or even Spain. I've done both before.

Anyway, the AGCEEP has not changed vassalization/diploannexation. It's hardcoded, and it would be extremely difficult to change it without the source code.

 

[MattyG]

Let me take a different approach.

I have a request for the Source Code Team (SCT). In addition to all the many wonderful tools you are adding for modders, would you please consider including DiploAnnexation as a game element that could be modded?

Not knowing anything about how the game works it, I have no idea what aspects of it could be modded, of course. But if values for the religions and goods values can be altered, perhaps perameters for DiploAnnexation could also be modified. In this way, as with any other aspect of the game, if a mod or player wanted to adjust how DiploAnnexation worked, they could do so.

Thanks.

Matty

 

[MattyG]

MichaelM,

Some ideas to add to your list of values for the commands (as in value = -1, -2 etc):

1. A value to represent the country's leige.

2. A value to represent a random vassal from among that country's vassals.

3. A value to represent a random country with which you have an RM.

4. A value for a province whose culture group matches that of the state.

5. A value for a province whose culture group does not match that of the state.

Regards,

Matty

 

[MichaelM]

Yes, I believe that's what YodaMaster was speaking of in post #181. One of our goals is to make as many things as possible moddable.

EDIT: referring to the post before last

 

[The Swert]

How about a ledger page with a graph showing total income and total expenses over time. When you turn both lines on you can clearly see which years you made a profit and which you made a loss.

 

[MichaelM]

MichaelM,

Some ideas to add to your list of values for the commands (as in value = -1, -2 etc):

1. A value to represent the country's leige.

2. A value to represent a random vassal from among that country's vassals.

3. A value to represent a random country with which you have an RM.

4. A value for a province whose culture group matches that of the state.

5. A value for a province whose culture group does not match that of the state.

Regards,

Matty

I see no reason why not. The only possible problem is reading the events and wondering, "Now what does -33 mean again?"

How about a ledger page with a graph showing total income and total expenses over time. When you turn both lines on you can clearly see which years you made a profit and which you made a loss.

Sounds easy enough, but I'll let other people handle that one.

 

[unmerged(15247)]

would there be anyway to be able to change provincial goods within event triggers?

 

[MattyG]

would there be anyway to be able to change provincial goods within event triggers?

Check post number 25.

It is one of many event commands that are planned, assuming the coding for the change can be worked out.

Yes, it will be a good addition.

 

[Mats_SX]

I see no reason why not. The only possible problem is reading the events and wondering, "Now what does -33 mean again?"

A values.txt could be added to DB folder, with explanations to what every command means.

 

[Laur]

What MattyG is talking about is when, say, France forcevassalizes and diploannexes England or even Spain. I've done both before.

Anyway, the AGCEEP has not changed vassalization/diploannexation. It's hardcoded, and it would be extremely difficult to change it without the source code.

France almost annexed Spain but was eventually thwarted after the War of Spanish Succession and the treaties of Utrecht and Rastadt which concluded it.
England also 'forcevassalized' and 'conquered' France for a short time during the 100 years war.*
I see nothing wrong with diplo-annexation as it is. However, to make it more realistic, there should be a check as to the size of the countries involved: if a large kingdom is diplo-annexed by another, there should be a greater drop in relations with its neighbours (maybe some coallition formation events could be scripted?) and widespread revolts and revolt-risk in the country annexed.

*I still am of the opinnion that the King of England, if he managed to secure the crown of France, would have ruled from Paris, not from London, making it, in effect, a diplo-annexation of England by France*

 

[Blaster]

to make it more realistic, there should be a check as to the size of the countries involved: if a large kingdom is diplo-annexed by another, there should be a greater drop in relations with its neighbours (maybe some coallition formation events could be scripted?) and widespread revolts and revolt-risk in the country annexed.

imo there is no sense in making diplo-annexation "harder". first of all i like it the way it is (i'm not the only one) and i would realy find it dissapointing if major changes are made) the real changes we need to think of are those for events (like more options), maby for grafix and AI issues.

 

[unmerged(15247)]

France almost annexed Spain but was eventually thwarted after the War of Spanish Succession and the treaties of Utrecht and Rastadt which concluded it.
England also 'forcevassalized' and 'conquered' France for a short time during the 100 years war.*
I see nothing wrong with diplo-annexation as it is. However, to make it more realistic, there should be a check as to the size of the countries involved: if a large kingdom is diplo-annexed by another, there should be a greater drop in relations with its neighbours (maybe some coallition formation events could be scripted?) and widespread revolts and revolt-risk in the country annexed.

*I still am of the opinnion that the King of England, if he managed to secure the crown of France, would have ruled from Paris, not from London, making it, in effect, a diplo-annexation of England by France*

imagine all that bonus for "capital connect"

 

[MattyG]

imo there is no sense in making diplo-annexation "harder". first of all i like it the way it is (i'm not the only one) and i would realy find it dissapointing if major changes are made) the real changes we need to think of are those for events (like more options), maby for grafix and AI issues.

Opinions differ markedly on DA. I mostly displike the way it happens so frequently for the ai.

Either way, I just want it to be moddable, like so many other features of the game.

 

[unmerged(15247)]

there is also two issues that annoy me personaly; or bugs?

1- sending colonists; sometimes a over 60%chance province needs 5+ tries to be able to colonize while a 30 percent one might colonize from first; what i mean is that the ratio of "success" is not as "random " as it seems; very much the same issue for CONVERSIONS.

2- random events triggering on dec 29-31st; ALWAYS ones that generally have negative cash values. definatelly not "random" at all when comes to choice and triggers.

also in latest agceep there are those random events that keep repeating indefinatelly; i am sure that is becouse now most those random events are tied to the sliders...

i usually play with all sliders to the right until trade/infra 6 and above ( after i decrease serfdom and aristocracy since stability recovery ratio is not as important due to better income especially trade one, and promotions all done , sometimes low bb too). so i keep getting the merchant event, "cities demand old rights" and the 2 types of unhapiness NON STOP. especially the damm merchant one gets soooooo annoying when get it 6 times within 10 years . all of a sudden the random events seem no more random at all. also gets much worse when a non-european nation since those have even more restrictions on events that could trigger

basically if you are restricting an event( for various reasons) , could u please add a new one to balance the "pool" choice at least? so , for example, if high centra triggers lots of "cities demand old rights", maybe there could be a more "exclusive one and NOT similar to the above one for LOW centra? and MOST IMPORTANT; since high centra triggers "cities" demand old rights, maybe there could be a NEW event that triggers(has chances to) in the same circumstances(hight centra). so then the player has variety REGARDLESS OF HIS/HER SLIDERS.

would be IDEAL that every "left of center" or "right of center" sliders to have two events each "most likelly"; one "bad" and one "good".

 

[MichaelM]

there is also two issues that annoy me personaly; or bugs?

1- sending colonists; sometimes a over 60%chance province needs 5+ tries to be able to colonize while a 30 percent one might colonize from first; what i mean is that the ratio of "success" is not as "random " as it seems; very much the same issue for CONVERSIONS.

2- random events triggering on dec 29-31st; ALWAYS ones that generally have negative cash values. definatelly not "random" at all when comes to choice and triggers.

I think it is more likely that you remember these things when they happen than that they always happen. "Sometimes..." and "might..." sound to me like things are working properly. In other words: It happens. Deal with it.