I prefer to plan carefully rather than have multiple DoW's in a big empire I can't defend and when I am at war. However, it rather depends on your style of playSunZyl said:That's good during a WC. Free DoWs, please!
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I haven't even tried it since 1.07 and don't know if it can truly be done now. If so, I think Peter Ebbesen could do it. I've always found it good to have multiple small armies scattered throughout my long conquered territory. That way if a CW does crop up there are no massive armies I have to try and take out. I can recruit large armies and destroy them. Of course I still had to have large armies on my borders for security, but it did lessen my problems.
Once the CW is quelled, break up the interior armies again into small pieces. If it crops up again repeat earlier tactic. No massive armies in your interior as no large supposedly loyal armies will defect. Small armies are MUCH easier to beat than massive ones.
But that's just me. I conquered the world as Auvergne, after becoming France and it was quite difficult. I was lucky in that although my BB was outrageous my stability didn't stay negative very long for very often. With multiple BB wars you get large land acquisitions with them. Just have to get them in waves. Better than one set going after you and then the other joins in. I find it good to keep them scheduled apart...
Once the CW is quelled, break up the interior armies again into small pieces. If it crops up again repeat earlier tactic. No massive armies in your interior as no large supposedly loyal armies will defect. Small armies are MUCH easier to beat than massive ones.
But that's just me. I conquered the world as Auvergne, after becoming France and it was quite difficult. I was lucky in that although my BB was outrageous my stability didn't stay negative very long for very often. With multiple BB wars you get large land acquisitions with them. Just have to get them in waves. Better than one set going after you and then the other joins in. I find it good to keep them scheduled apart...
Very easy way to deal with civil wars. Keep all your armies on fleets. They will not turn in the event of a civil war so you can just ship them back to shore to kill rebels and then get them back on there ships again.
Dr Bob said:
something i found out the hard way: they do turn. just that you get to see if they do or do not. If they DO turn, then ask MA from a country you really hate, and dump them in one of their ports
rsobota said:I once had a civil war, but it was not that hard to face. My empire was very big, tough, so if you have a big empire go for total centralization immediately. Also I had a very bad BB rating; when in a WC, it is good to think instead of just fighting
I really don't understand this advice. Is it even possible to minimize badboy after you kick off the BB wars? As far as I can tell periods of peace to work off war exhaustion are essential. So you have to get rid of a lot of one province nations quickly. And even if you can minimize badboy I'm not convinced that the difference between badboy of 120 and badboy of 300 matters for civil wars.
If the advice is simply to be careful with badboy BEFORE kicking off the BB wars then I think that the advice is sort of obvious, and not really relevent to the problem of civil wars in the meat of the badboy wars.
So you're saying that my comment in the previous post is wrong?
I don't see how it's possible to conquer the entire world without ever being at peace. In that case it's guaranteed that revolt risk will hit 10% in every province and you'll be getting 3-4 revolts per month.
I also don't see what this has to do with the original advice of
I really cannot understand what this comment means.
Isaac Brock said:
I don't see how it's possible to conquer the entire world without ever being at peace. In that case it's guaranteed that revolt risk will hit 10% in every province and you'll be getting 3-4 revolts per month.
I also don't see what this has to do with the original advice of
I really cannot understand what this comment means.
It means the AI nations will hate the player attempting to WC more and more, relations will deteriorate, and at one point you'll start to get untoward war declarations from everybody who knows about you, which can be tough to handle also, your stability will take more and more to improve. It will make your game turn from something fun to a bitter struggle vs. the rest of the world. I don't think I will ever try WC because although it's difficult, it doesn't look as a lot of fun unless your idea of fun involves being unhappy and/or angry.
also, your stability will take more and more to improve. It will make your game turn from something fun to a bitter struggle vs. the rest of the world. I don't think I will ever try WC because although it's difficult, it doesn't look as a lot of fun unless your idea of fun involves being unhappy and/or angry.
I'm sorry, but you've really lost me. I don't understand what you're suggestign at all. As far as I know, once you kick of badboy wars you will get a DOW from every country with a border or with a port on your home continent. You will get this DOW every time they are not at war, and do not have a truce with you. Whether these DOWs are untoward or not they are enturely predictable. Whether AI countries hate you or not is irrelevent at this point. And although your badboy continues to affect stability costs, I can't see how you can possibly manage badboy once the BB wars begin. You cannot use allies to annex minor countries, because allies will not honour calls to war once the Badboy wars begin. You cannot force-vassalize, ally and diplo-annex all the countries you need to get rid of, because you can only have 4 countries in your alliance. And you stability cost will be hueg when you hit 100 provinces or so, so I can't see how badboy helps.
Basically I still don't get what rsboto was saying. The thread topic is civil wars in WC attempts. Until you cross the BB limit civil wars are very manageable and not a threat. It's only when you have every country declaring war every 5 years that civil wars will destroy you. Rsboto is saying to plan your wars carefully, and to think instead of just fight. Which is great advice - when you're fighting the entire world you cannot just use brute force.
But I don't understand how planning your wars carefully can help you avoid civil wars during the BB wars. Does he mean to stay at war throughout the entire BB war phase as Fnuco suggests? Certainly that helps avoid civil wars. In that case why does he say "or else you will get a very bad reputation"? Does he mean that you can do a WC without triggering BB wars? I can't see how this is possible without extreme cheating.
Like Schweiger I don't understand how anyone can do a WC under 1.09. Once you go badboy, you'll get a civil war as soon as you are
1) At peace
2) Below 1 stability.
So the only choices I can see are
1) Stay at war. But how to deal with war exhaustion at the maximum?
2) Stay at +1 or higher stability. But how can you when so many event will kick you down, and stability costs are immense and DOWs don't get you any higher than 0 stabilty?
3) Fight lots of civil wars. Certainly this is possible once you have most of the world under your control. But if you have any powerful enemies left I can't see how you do this.
Rsboto seems to be suggesting that keeping BB down during BB wars would help. I would love to have a better idea of how to do this.
Basically I still don't get what rsboto was saying. The thread topic is civil wars in WC attempts. Until you cross the BB limit civil wars are very manageable and not a threat. It's only when you have every country declaring war every 5 years that civil wars will destroy you. Rsboto is saying to plan your wars carefully, and to think instead of just fight. Which is great advice - when you're fighting the entire world you cannot just use brute force.
But I don't understand how planning your wars carefully can help you avoid civil wars during the BB wars. Does he mean to stay at war throughout the entire BB war phase as Fnuco suggests? Certainly that helps avoid civil wars. In that case why does he say "or else you will get a very bad reputation"? Does he mean that you can do a WC without triggering BB wars? I can't see how this is possible without extreme cheating.
Like Schweiger I don't understand how anyone can do a WC under 1.09. Once you go badboy, you'll get a civil war as soon as you are
1) At peace
2) Below 1 stability.
So the only choices I can see are
1) Stay at war. But how to deal with war exhaustion at the maximum?
2) Stay at +1 or higher stability. But how can you when so many event will kick you down, and stability costs are immense and DOWs don't get you any higher than 0 stabilty?
3) Fight lots of civil wars. Certainly this is possible once you have most of the world under your control. But if you have any powerful enemies left I can't see how you do this.
Rsboto seems to be suggesting that keeping BB down during BB wars would help. I would love to have a better idea of how to do this.
I would suggest something along the following lines:
1. keep stab up. invest in it if necessary.
2. to avoid war exhaustion in the double digits, synchronize your peace offers at about the same time, so you will get 5 years of peace.
3. never sign peace when you are at stab<1
4. use TONS of mercenaries. recruiting does increase WE, so try to avoid it. avoid fighting, for the same reason. one aproach can be destroying your enemy's armies, then siege the provinces.
5. Have ALL your vassals in your alliances, or they will DOW and break vassalage.
6. start BB wars only when you are prepared, and preferably through a large diploannex.
1. keep stab up. invest in it if necessary.
2. to avoid war exhaustion in the double digits, synchronize your peace offers at about the same time, so you will get 5 years of peace.
3. never sign peace when you are at stab<1
4. use TONS of mercenaries. recruiting does increase WE, so try to avoid it. avoid fighting, for the same reason. one aproach can be destroying your enemy's armies, then siege the provinces.
5. Have ALL your vassals in your alliances, or they will DOW and break vassalage.
6. start BB wars only when you are prepared, and preferably through a large diploannex.
So no magic bullets. Nothing I don't really get already.
Dr. Bob, I know that was a joke, but I'm not sure WC is possible at very easy. The number of DOWs you have to issue is very high, and you won't get any free stability bumps from AI DOWs. Becauyse you can't DOW at -3 stabilty you have to regain 1 point of stability for every DOW. And you'll need a couple of hundred DOWs.
This is well and good, but typically you'll reach a point where one stability point costs about 5 years. And this is usually when you're about 10-20 years into the BB wars - exactly the point at which you're least able to handle a civil war. BB effect on stability is maxed out and income hasn't more than doubled since going BB. I understand it's useful, but at the most critical moment stab investment is at it's worst. (Makes me think a high tech WC is better).Fnuco said:
Obviously correct, but very difficult to do. Occasionally investment will get you to stab +1. And sometimes events will. But most of the time you'll be living at 0 stab from all the DOWs. And it's hard to time full peace with a random event!
Is it possible to avoid recruiting? Obviously going BB at well above your support limit, and doing so with a huge DA will help. But from what I cna tell the amount of recruiting needed to get you to WE 10 is not really all that much.
Pretty obvious advice that I'm sure Schweiger was already following.
Dr. Bob, I know that was a joke, but I'm not sure WC is possible at very easy. The number of DOWs you have to issue is very high, and you won't get any free stability bumps from AI DOWs. Becauyse you can't DOW at -3 stabilty you have to regain 1 point of stability for every DOW. And you'll need a couple of hundred DOWs.
I have to sign everything Isaac Brook wrote.
Foreign nations and War Exhaustion are no problems any more from some point on in a WC-attempt. The latter would be, if you were not 'allowed' to seek longer periodes of peace (because of the CW-risk).
My main problem: I still don't know the factors determining the monthly chance of getting a CW, especially not if the height of the BB value is relevant or if there is just a fixed value of probability for crossing the BB limit. I really don't have the nerve to go ahead and test it. If someone finds out -> let me know :]
Stab can't be kept above 0 because the stab costs are astronomical in a WC attempt: You have lots of regions with wrong religion and culture and you are above the BB limit, which (IIRC) doubles stab costs.
BB value can't be kept below the limit for obvious reasons (one province-minors have to be annexed ASAP).
If these two factors are the only ones which count for the CW-probability (as the documentation suggests), then I don't see, how WC should possible under 1.09. Continuous warfare is no viable alternative. 2-3 civil wars per year can't be countered with anything you do before they strike. Even by keeping all armies afloat, the main problem remains: One third of your provinces become rebel-controlled. Even if you assault whereever you can, you will never be quick enough. The number of rebel-controlled provinces will rise to half of your provinces after the third CW at the latest and the government will fall.
Foreign nations and War Exhaustion are no problems any more from some point on in a WC-attempt. The latter would be, if you were not 'allowed' to seek longer periodes of peace (because of the CW-risk).
My main problem: I still don't know the factors determining the monthly chance of getting a CW, especially not if the height of the BB value is relevant or if there is just a fixed value of probability for crossing the BB limit. I really don't have the nerve to go ahead and test it. If someone finds out -> let me know :]
Stab can't be kept above 0 because the stab costs are astronomical in a WC attempt: You have lots of regions with wrong religion and culture and you are above the BB limit, which (IIRC) doubles stab costs.
BB value can't be kept below the limit for obvious reasons (one province-minors have to be annexed ASAP).
If these two factors are the only ones which count for the CW-probability (as the documentation suggests), then I don't see, how WC should possible under 1.09. Continuous warfare is no viable alternative. 2-3 civil wars per year can't be countered with anything you do before they strike. Even by keeping all armies afloat, the main problem remains: One third of your provinces become rebel-controlled. Even if you assault whereever you can, you will never be quick enough. The number of rebel-controlled provinces will rise to half of your provinces after the third CW at the latest and the government will fall.
If we had just 200 years more for a WCSchweiger said:
. However, we don't, so it's better to get fully sefdom, narrow-minded and have a lot of manufactories especially in provinces with wrong culture and religion, as they reduce the revolt risk. Promoting chief judges can also reduce revolt risk a little; always get fully centralized, as it will reduce the likeness of a civil war. And make sure you get BB while you have a monarch with a good DIP rating so he can partially fix the problems in time. Being fully narrow-minded gives you also missionaries and increases the likehood that the "Conversion of Heretics" event will occur. Make sure you try to convert a lot of provinces because it will reduce the stability costs even if you spend a lot of money.
rsobota said:If we had just 200 years more for a WC
Chief Judges reduce RR only by 1, while Tax Collectors raise it by 3. If RR is a bigger problem than income then don´t build Tax Collectors
Yes, so it would be wise to build TC's jsut in your core rpovinces and all provinces with the same religion as your, or where you have a good religious tolerance. Anyway, chief judges still help a little...ConjurerDragon said:
RR is not the problem.
The two problems are:
- stab will not be higher than 0 for longer periods of time
- BB will be over the limit
Those two can't be fixed when going for a WC. Max Centralization is a must, that's clear, but it doesn't help a lot - at least not in my experience.
The two problems are:
- stab will not be higher than 0 for longer periods of time
- BB will be over the limit
Those two can't be fixed when going for a WC. Max Centralization is a must, that's clear, but it doesn't help a lot - at least not in my experience.
Fnuco said:something i found out the hard way: they do turn. just that you get to see if they do or do not. If they DO turn, then ask MA from a country you really hate, and dump them in one of their ports
Yeah Fnuco, young Bob has still a lot to learn.
Only Daniel knows the real CW trick and so far I have told no one and none has been able to guess it.
So do you build 50 fine arts academies? Even with 50 FAAs, full serfdom, and full narrowiminded I can't see that your stability time will be less than 2 years. Of course if it is two years, then the problem is manageable, in my experience it is always more then 2 years. And full serfdom, if I'm not mistaken increases the odds of destabilizign events. Presumably you have to declare war as soon as stability drops below +1.rsobota said:
I don't understand this suggestion. Once you cross the BB limit you'll be pilign on BB points like there is no tommorrow. Who cares if you lose one point evry 4 years or one point every 10 years at that stage? I mean is there really a difference for either stab cost or civil war probability between 186 badboy points and 189 badboy points?
That's well and good, but while taking over Europe (for example) there are going to be 200-300 provinces that need conversion. Even if you can take care of 30 before going BB (which is excellent progress IMHO), you'll still be stuck with tons of wrong religion provinces. It's not possible to convert more than 2-3 a year, and you need to take over all of Europe within say 40 years of going BB. So yeah conversions will reduce stability costs, but not by all that much. Certainly nothing compared to DP sliders.
Anyway, I'd still like to understand how you handle the civil war issue. Is it
1) Stay at war except for those short periods where you have stability of 1 or better. Stay at peace as long as possible and recruit like mad, and DOW as soon as stbaility drops to 0. This would also involve NEVER recruiting while at war unless absolutley necessary. So you count on the army you have when you go BB, and mercenaries to conquer the world.
2) Plan to fight lots of Civil Wars. I can understand that once you own all of Europe and are simply grinding down the rest of the world this is viable, although it seems extremely challenging to me. But I'd like to see an explantion of exactly how you will fight a civil war every year or so. And of course in this case you need to keep the manpower pool full.
3) Keep stability cost low enough that you can recover stabilty easily. Frankly I'm convinced that this is impossible.
4) Something else I'm missing. As alluded to by comments that I cannot understand like:
[I'm going to be able to keep stability above 0 for FIVE years?]
On this thread the following advice was offered:
And on fighting civil wars
But in Schweiger's case I don't see how he could avoid having a whole mess of countries declare independence before the civil war put down.
I don't know whether this is possible, but it should be possible in a Civil War to exploit the AI to kill rebels for you. When a human fights rebels they fight at the human's land tech level. When the AI fights rebels they fight at the rebels land tech value, which is usually quite crappy. If you're doing a high tech WC (as DanielA likes to) any vassals you release should be able to cream rebel armies, and assualt rebel held cities without any trouble. The trick, of course, is getting them to do so when they are at war with you.
Nebukadnezar said:
And on fighting civil wars
Nebukadnezar said:
But in Schweiger's case I don't see how he could avoid having a whole mess of countries declare independence before the civil war put down.
I don't know whether this is possible, but it should be possible in a Civil War to exploit the AI to kill rebels for you. When a human fights rebels they fight at the human's land tech level. When the AI fights rebels they fight at the rebels land tech value, which is usually quite crappy. If you're doing a high tech WC (as DanielA likes to) any vassals you release should be able to cream rebel armies, and assualt rebel held cities without any trouble. The trick, of course, is getting them to do so when they are at war with you.