EU is great for increasing awarness of history and other countries!

[unmerged(589)]

What's wrong with people having opinions on some aspects of a different country? Many Europeans have experience of the US and vice versa. As long as people don't get abusive there is no problem. And saying that 'your country sucks at this or that' is not necessarily abusive. Maybe it is true.

One thing I would never do however is tell the people in a different democratic country how they should run it. Friendly suggestion, yes, but nothing else. How they run it is their business, and their business only.

I would be thrilled if a foreigner said that the Swedish system of education sucks, because it is extremely bad. In Swedish schools intelligence and talent are dirty words, because they are thought to imply elitism. Thus any attempt to create a school for gifted kids is immediately met by demonstrations etc by the anti-elitism morons.

The reason for this is ironically enough the prevalent but non-articulated idea that intelligence is the most important thing, that stupid people are worth less than others. If you don't think so deep down, then what would be so bad with elite schools? This idea, coupled to the Swedish ideas of equality (better that all are equally bad than differently good) produces a situation where being intelligent in school is frowned upon.

I remember few years back a farmer died and left some money for a fund to be created that would give rewards for good students in the local school. The teachers would have nothing to do with it since it promoted fascist ideas, so the money is still untouched in the bank.

Swedish education = 1984. Good is bad. Freedom is slavery.

Maybe I got carried away, but I really hate this crap. I have suffered because of this equality-bullshit every day of my school years and will continue to suffer until the day I die.

In the US you can buy good education. This is impossible in Sweden.

 

[daboese]

Quote: 'In the US you can BUY good education. This is impossible in Sweden'
No comment .
Honestly, I think Europeans are aware of their problems in their systems as well. But I think Americans have to be aware, too, and as the only remaining super-power, be a little bit less patriotic.
And the anti- Elite system in Europe makes it very hard for good students who get very often bullied and so on. However, to a certain degree, this is also true in the US.

 

[unmerged(746)]

I have an analogy that I believe explains a lot when it comes to US-European relations.

NOTE: These are GENERALIZATIONS. I am very aware of the limits of any analogy. I recognize the great variety of persons within a given nationality or age group. Do not smoke or do drugs. The computer is your friend.

In the family of nations, the US is very young (300 years old) and very strong. We are like a brash teenager - full of energy, idealistic, and utterly obsessed with novelty.

Europe is like that teenager's parent - experienced, reflective, and aware of the pain that can be caused through careless action.

What happens when teenagers and their parents come together? Tension. They love each other, but they simply cannot see one anothers' perspectives. The teenager wants to rush forward and make the world a better place; the parent wants to carefully build upon the foundation of the past. The teenager views the parent's experiences as irrelevant because 'things are different these days.' The parent views the teenager's experiences as irrelevant because 'when you grow up you'll understand.' Both sides show arrogance in their dismissals of the other. Both sides have difficulty in bridging the generation gap.

Try re-reading this thread and some of the other flame wars that have taken place recently, and see whether this parent-teenager analogy sheds some light on what is going on. I am interested in hearing your opinions.

 

[Barthold De Mortaigne]

First of all I would just like to point out that I don´t believe American´s are more stupid than any one else. Perhaps a bit more ignorant.

Why is there such a great difference between public and private schools in the US?
Don´t you have laws regulating the educational system? Subjects etc that has to be taught in all schools, private or not?
I can understand that the overall quality of the private schools are higher, that´s the same here.

 

[unmerged(334)]

To Tubal-Cain .

I love that analogy!!!!! it is great!

So what are you a kid or a parent.

 

[unmerged(833)]

Originally posted by Ami Hund:
Some very well written posts here. And thanks
to folks like Peter, Gelete, and Viking we can see that the stereotype that Europeans are snobs is also not true. Unfortunately, these anti-American insults occur far too often in these forums (I have been lurking here since August). It would be nice to see our moderators taking a firmer stand against them. 'It's a matter of acting responsibly and with manners', Sapura wrote earlier, but only when someone's girlfriend's mother made a comment against Poland. Yes, I know he isn't the moderator of this particular forum, but he does represent Paradox.
There will be more and more Americans coming to these forums once the game is released. What sort of forum does Paradox wish to have? One that is welcoming to this rash of newcomers, or one full of flame wars?

Hi,
i thought the USA a free a democratic country? Can't we all have our different opinions and discuss them? I think no one is needed to create an pro American climate in this forum.

Falkenhyn

 

[Barthold De Mortaigne]

Ami H,
Sure we can throw in an electricity-aid programme together with the educational-aid...

As you pointed out, we don´t need it! We sleep naked in the snow anyway, together with the polar-bears that wander the streets of Sweden

 

[unmerged(746)]

Pomerania Prince:

I'm at that 'awkward age' of being too old to stay out partying all night and too young to go to bed early. So I play computer games.

 

[unmerged(824)]

Originally posted by Erich von Falkenhyn:
Hi,
i thought the USA a free a democratic country? Can't we all have our different opinions and discuss them? I think no one is needed to create an pro American climate in this forum.

Falkenhyn

_____________________________________________

Of course, we can all have our opinions and discuss them. Off-Topic insults are another matter. They happen far too often. Personally, I think a pro-everyone forum would be a great thing. If any one really
wants to discuss this, take it to the off-topic board. Pom. Prince, wouldn't you agree that a making E.U. a hit in the U.S. would assist in educating Americans in European history? A board without these pointless flame wars would benifit E.U. much more than
giving every one the freedom to insult.


------------------
Bernhard R.

 

[unmerged(749)]

Its great to see Poland for example being discussed and argued over by non-Poles!

Yes indeed, this son of a Ukrainian from Lviv can't wait to tear into the haughty Poles! : D

 

[unmerged(824)]

Originally posted by Barthold De Mortaigne:

As you pointed out, we don´t need it! We sleep naked in the snow anyway, together with the polar-bears that wander the streets of Sweden [/B]

You have streets!

 

[Barthold De Mortaigne]

'A board without these pointless flame wars would benifit E.U. much more than
giving every one the freedom to insult.' -Ami Hund.


Well, that´s called freedom of speech and is , afaik, included even in your constitution...

But of course, insults we should not encourage.

 

[unmerged(334)]

Originally posted by Ami Hund:
[B

Originally posted by Erich von


_____________________________________________

Of course, we can all have our opinions and discuss them. Off-Topic insults are another matter. They happen far too often. Personally, I think a pro-everyone forum would be a great thing. If any one really
wants to discuss this, take it to the off-topic board. Pom. Prince, wouldn't you agree that a making E.U. a hit in the U.S. would assist in educating Americans in European history? A board without these pointless flame wars would benifit E.U. much more than
giving every one the freedom to insult.


[/B]

I will agree with you on flame wars. I don't agree with you on description of flame wars. Most comments on this forum were done in polite way( my opinion only), some were not. All sides of the spectrum have the right to express their opinions. If Americans who come to this forum will not like the game because of the discussions on the forum than it is their loss (and Paradox unfortunately). In my view this types of talk helps us understand each other better. Now you know why people think this or that about you and your country. In return they learn more about your view. Some flaming will happen when people loose control, but you will soon find out that most of us are good guys that have different look on life. We don't flame or upset each other because it is fun, but because we believe in what we say and try to change your view really hard.( the exemption is yannis69 and storm ) If you can't deal with that than you will not be happy in any forum that has large international public. People from all parts of this planet will have different if not colliding views on life. You can learn much on this forum about history, politics, society ..it is definitely better than many others that I visited. .temporary flaming of US or Americans is only part of it... other forum talks about Scandinavian countries and different view in each of them.. they flame each other but they are willing to talk and have good time... Many times I have different opinion than Orange, KRonn, yannis69, Storm, Sapure and many others but with time you begin to see their saide of the coin and start to respect them. That is when you really have long good, polite discussions about many topics. So plz.. don't say that flaming or talking about controversial topics will turn people away from this forum...I am sure you will like it too when we start bashing Poland or Germany or France...( btw we already did bash France during Vurbil times on the forum...)

 

[unmerged(786)]

I think that we have to understand one important thing about history and generalizations. And we have to be glad, cause playing EU and speaking in this forum we have the chance to know a lot about us. FOr example, Carlos showed me how Portugal joined to the Spanish Crown in the XVI Century (i belief that was a conquest made for the Spanish Armies, but Carlos showed me the real history). We are educated with too much generalizations by our families and teachers, here in Spain, a lot of people beleive that the Americans are fats, the Germans drunks, the Italians lazies, the Portuguese poors.. but fortunately many spaniards know that this is absolutelly FALSE, cause there are fats, drunks, lazies and poor people all over the world. Cause our generation couldnt be understood without the american movies, the german phillosophy, the italian music or the portuguese literature¡¡¡ Please friends, let us fight against this terrible monster that is the GENERALIZATION. As Oskar Wilde said a century ago, while he was in Reading, 'No hay nada peor que la superficialidad, todo lo que se entiende esta bien',.

And please, excuse my terrific english.

 

[unmerged(13)]

Ami Hund,


First of all a) it was a slight joke between two Poles. Not a major flame war so don't get your knickers in a bind..


Secondly, I didn't mention or flame America in any case, stop putting words into my mouth because that pisses me off. Your post insinuates that I'm sort of anti-American or anti westerner. I've been living outside Poland for over 15 years (2 of those years in the US) now (thats 3/4's of my life), so please watch what you're saying.

Thirdly as a citizen of Poland, and citizen AND a resident of Australia I think I have the right to say what I think in regards to her comments -- particulary in her case.

Fourthly, I maybe a moderator, but I'll say what I want, nobody will ever put a gag over my mouth, no matter how I express myself. I've always maintained as reasonable line as possible in these forums, granted I've swayed, so have others, however with the amount of insults and abuse hurled at me over the past 12 months by certain people I think I'm in my right to reply in my defence as well.

As far as Paradox goes, they've not said anything at all about my comments or made any negative remarks, I keep in close personal contact with many of their folks and they seem supportive. This is an international forum, my friend, clashes are bound to occur, and they will. That in a way is reasonable until it gets out of hand. I could have replied with a few very snotty, but *serious* remarks in regards to the earlier topic of his g/f's mother, but I didn't because it was not the proper thing to do.

As I said before 'if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all'.. I'm not saying she wanted to directly insult Poland or the Polish people, but she should watch what she's saying.

She is not the center of the universe, there are are many Australian Poles about who would be insulted (or amused, like I was) when hearing such stuff, just as you would if someone mentioned something rather negative about your country..


Sapura



[This message has been edited by Sapura (edited 03-02-2001).]

 

[unmerged(334)]

Sapura, don't worry you can't make happy everybody.

 

[KRonn]

Originally posted by Pomerania Prince:
to
Now to all: < i will be flamed for this big time >

Pomerania Prince,
I'm still trying to find reason to flame you, as you requested, but I agree with much of what you say. Not all, but your overall idea.
Damn, can't even start a flame war!


Such a pity - It would have been Glorious!!!

[This message has been edited by KRonn (edited 03-02-2001).]

 

[unmerged(13)]

Pomerania Prince,

Oh I know that and it's certainly not my aim, I certainly don't kiss up to anyones ass.. unless its Paradox themselves

Great, great company, go buy their stuff, kiddies!

Sapura

 

[unmerged(824)]

Originally posted by Sapura:
B]Ami Hund,


Secondly, I didn't mention or flame America in any case, stop putting words into my
mouth because that pisses me off.
_____________________________________________

I do not see anything of the sort in my remarks. I could say you are putting words in my mouth as well. Ask me if that is what I
meant next time.
____________________________________________
Thirdly as a citizen of Poland, and citizen AND a resident of Australia I think I have the right to say what I think in regards to her comments -- particulary in her case.
____________________________________________

You have the right, but was it a wise thing to do? _____________________________________________

Fourthly, I maybe a moderator, but I'll say what I want, nobody will ever put a gag over my mouth, no matter how I express myself. I've always maintained as reasonable line as possible in these forums, granted I've swayed, so have others, however with the amount of insults and abuse hurled at me over the past 12 months by certain people I think I'm in my right to reply in my defence as well.
_____________________________________________

Again, you do have that right. Obviously, I was not one of the people who insulted you, or do you think I did? I must ask, however, is the tone of your reply to me your standard to even the mildest critisism?
____________________________________________

As I said before 'if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all'..

She is not the center of the universe, there are are many Australian Poles about who would be insulted (or amused, like I was) when hearing such stuff, just as you would if someone mentioned something rather negative about your country..


Sapura

_____________________________________________

I agree, those are my points exactly. I think
it would be a good thing to discourage such
negativity. I really am at a loss at your anger.


------------------
Bernhard R.

 

[unmerged(13)]

'I do not see anything of the sort in my remarks. I could say you are putting words in my mouth as well. Ask me if that is what I
meant next time.'

No it's all in the implication. I understood your comments in this way: merely because you haven't seen me acting to curb any insults directed towards the Americans on this forum that I apparently condone their actions.

a) I don't condone their actions and I see them as unfair

b) I do take steps to warn and 'prosecute' such people, you are new to this forum yes, so perhaps you haven't seen this done before

c) American replies to any apparent negative comments directed to them have been both intelligent, thoughtful and well written. i.e. many of these comments have ceased as a result. Why should I take steps when the issue can resolve itself? It's better when you guys do it than for me or Paradox to step in and sort things out, don't you agree?

'You have the right, but was it a wise thing to do?'

d)I'm not perfect, never said I was. I've almost crossed the boundaries a few times myself and learnt from my mistakes. Don't see my comments about his g/f's mother as an indication of a general assault on westerners, Americans, Australians or whoever.


'Again, you do have that right. Obviously, I was not one of the people who insulted you, or do you think I did? I must ask, however, is the tone of your reply to me your standard to even the mildest critisism'

Criticize all you like, however I don't take kindly to personal attacks, when in my opinion they were not warranted at all.


'I agree, those are my points exactly. I thinkit would be a good thing to discourage such negativity. I really am at a loss at your anger. '

Of course its right and proper to discourage such negativity. As I said above, the earlier comments weren't ment to offend or insult anyone, at all. As for your comments, I took them as an attack which, in my opinions was unwarranted. If I misunderstood then sorry, but I was slightly angry at a few things you said.

Anyways, let's forget about this and concentrate on something on a lighter note

Sapura