Perhaps we should distribute the game in the US for free, as charity...
Sort of an educational aid-programme.
Sort of an educational aid-programme.
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________________________________________________________________________Originally posted by Barthold De Mortaigne:
Perhaps we should distribute the game in the US for free, as charity...
Sort of an educational aid-programme.
Sounds good to me!
You send me E.U. and I'll send you Civil War General. (It's much less expensive). 
Someone thought Croatia was part of the UK how stupid do you have to be to think that?
< very pissed off>
<trying to calm down to be polite>
I am not putting down Americans, they are as smart as Europeans but their school system sucks in regards to Geography. ( only in my opinion which I base on my education in 2 high schools on one collage) . Viking you compare not knowing US states to not knowing were are European countries!!!!!!!! What is wrong with you????? I am not asking Americans to know Australian, Canadian, Brazilian or Russian states, do I? I ask them about countries which are 10x older than theirs, which started colonization of America. I am not asking a American to tell me how many provinces are in Poland. I am very F***en tiered of comparing European nations to US states. That is in my lowly opinion very ignorant. And people who get upset and say that Europeans don't know this or that are just stupid. Fix the problem not blame somebody else. The fact that some Europeans don't know all US states should not stop Americans from educating their kids better.
With an Occidental education, I learned about North America and Europe. Nevertheless, it is very interesting to learn more about Asiatics dynasties.
I enjoy this time of waiting. I'm finishing my thesis in Quebec history, working too in history and I am looking for this historical game. Long live to History!
Rex Francorum
I would like to know more about you. I'm not from CIA What is the portrait of EU passionates players? I'm 29 M single from Québec City (QC)
I enjoy this time of waiting. I'm finishing my thesis in Quebec history, working too in history and I am looking for this historical game. Long live
to History!Rex Francorum
I would like to know more about you. I'm not from CIA
What is the portrait of EU passionates players? I'm 29 M single from Québec City (QC)
As da Prince pointed out, comparing US states with European nations is just stupid. There is a great difference between not knowing all states of a foreign country than to know that a country exists and where its located!
Do you Americans know, eg, all provinces of Sweden? Do you know how many there is, and their capitols?
I bet that I know more US states than you know Swedish provinces...
Do you Americans know, eg, all provinces of Sweden? Do you know how many there is, and their capitols?
I bet that I know more US states than you know Swedish provinces...
________________________________________________________________Originally posted by Barthold De Mortaigne:
As da Prince pointed out, comparing US states with European nations is just stupid. There is a great difference between not knowing all states of a foreign country than to know that a country exists and where its located!
Do you Americans know, eg, all provinces of Sweden? Do you know how many there is, and their capitols?
I bet that I know more US states than you know Swedish provinces...
This pointless argument continues. Why is it important to you that some Americans do not know much about your countries? I don't think Viking's point should be dismissed as 'stupid'. Some of the US states are larger in geographic size and population than some European countries. California's economy alone is larger than all but 7 countries. Let's talk about E.U.
By the way do you have any spare electricity?
------------------
Bernhard R.
Ok Ami H.
I ment that there is a difference between nations and national provinces. California is not an independent country, its a region in the USA. (I still know where it´s located...)
Is it too much to ask that Americans learn a little about the world around them? (and I don´t mean provinces, countries will do just fine)
Damn! You stole my hillarious joke about electrical power that you were begging for
I ment that there is a difference between nations and national provinces. California is not an independent country, its a region in the USA. (I still know where it´s located...)
Is it too much to ask that Americans learn a little about the world around them? (and I don´t mean provinces, countries will do just fine)
Damn! You stole my hillarious joke about electrical power that you were begging for
Wow! What a reply!
To clarify something about my girlfriend's mother, she is of the old 'White-Australia Policy' era, where the only good Australian was an Anglo-Saxon! She, unlike her daughter, is a barely concealed racist, who is so backward and prejudiced that rather than make me angry, makes me feel pity for her condition!
To add my two cents to the education debate, I have to say that my primary and secondary education apart from the beginning which was done in Poland, was carried out in Australia. For all those ridiculing the US system, I have to say that here in country NSW, it is far worse. Our geography class consisted of learning about Australian geography virtually EXCLUSIVELY! The class was dismantled befor we got to the rest of the world! As for history, well, we had a flag waving rugby player for a teacher, who only taught us the well trodden ANZAC myths of WW1 and WW2. All history before 1901 was ignored! What a joke! By Year 12 History was dropped from being taught at our school. Being interested greatly in history, I spend the free time I had in school teaching myself about world history in the school and town libraries! Virtually all I know, I had to teach myself! So don't bag out the US system until you've experienced the NSW country schooling!
BTW to answer Rex's post I'm a 25 m Post Grad student in Lismore, East Coast Australia.
To clarify something about my girlfriend's mother, she is of the old 'White-Australia Policy' era, where the only good Australian was an Anglo-Saxon! She, unlike her daughter, is a barely concealed racist, who is so backward and prejudiced that rather than make me angry, makes me feel pity for her condition!
To add my two cents to the education debate, I have to say that my primary and secondary education apart from the beginning which was done in Poland, was carried out in Australia. For all those ridiculing the US system, I have to say that here in country NSW, it is far worse. Our geography class consisted of learning about Australian geography virtually EXCLUSIVELY! The class was dismantled befor we got to the rest of the world! As for history, well, we had a flag waving rugby player for a teacher, who only taught us the well trodden ANZAC myths of WW1 and WW2. All history before 1901 was ignored! What a joke! By Year 12 History was dropped from being taught at our school. Being interested greatly in history, I spend the free time I had in school teaching myself about world history in the school and town libraries! Virtually all I know, I had to teach myself! So don't bag out the US system until you've experienced the NSW country schooling!
BTW to answer Rex's post I'm a 25 m Post Grad student in Lismore, East Coast Australia.
I agree more emphasis should be put in US schools on the geography of other continents (we actually were taught the Canadian provinces), but I think Viking's and my point is it takes as much effort to learn the detailed geography of the 50 United States as it does the countries of Europe. You are correct in saying they should not be given equal value, in that countries have more political importance,
and as you say, that is a flaw.
Speaking personally, I remember being taught as a 12 year old, (yes, finally) European geography and having to locate even Monaco, Andorra, and Liechtenstein. After that, however, it was never asked of us again, and to most people, since the percentage of US citizens who travel to Europe is naturally smaller than Europeans who travel to other European countries, it never becomes important to them, so the knowledge is soon lost.
By the way, I understand you have much hydro-power in Sweden. Perhaps if we can run a long extension cord? You Swedes are used to being cold: not us Californians.
------------------
Bernhard R.
Considering California is the state with the most population. Anyway, I agree, pointless to continue. Still it is nice to know something about history and other nations, rather than staying very narrow- minded...
BTW- Postgrad in Cambridge (the real one), UK (26)
Still it is nice to know something about history and other nations, rather than staying very narrow- minded...BTW- Postgrad in Cambridge (the real one
), UK (26)
I recall an episode of The Simpsons in which the US prints out a 1 trillion dollar bill for a lump-sum payment to aid post-WWII Europe. Mr. Burns (conniving, evil capitalist) is given the responsibility of delivering said bill, and simply flies away and keeps it for himself. Cut scene to the airport at Paris, where three European dignitaries (dressed in top hats and tails and whatnot) await the delivery. They figure out that the bill's not coming.
'Well, what do we do now?'
'I know! Let's just be snobby and rude to all Americans from now on!!!'
'Hear hear!'
Imbued in the American character is a sense of the new, and a disdain for the old. The earth that we walk here in the western hemisphere simply does not KNOW the history that any given plot in Europe would. Just about every speck of civilization in Europe has SOME historical significance, SOMETHING happened there...in America, towns bust with civic pride because obscure sitcom actors went to their high school. If you ask any given Virginian in Spotsylvania about the numerous civil war battles that occured there, you'll encounter just as much historical knowledge as you'd find in an Alsatian asked about the Franco-Prussian war.
Ours is a naturally insular culture...history and flanking oceans have made this so. Our alleged (though I believe real) hegemony over world affairs and culture is relatively new, and our recent conduct (missle defense shield, etc.) shows just how novice we are in the ways of the world. I'm not saying that this is right; it's just the way it is.
European history is my passion. I love nothing more than walking down a winding Italian street, just inhaling the essence of past events that soak everything around me. Europeans take such historical richness for granted. In the midwestern state where I attend university, no structure EXISTS that was made by human hands before 1850. Just keep that in mind. I am no apologist, if America is to justify her leading role in world affairs, her children MUST be made to KNOW the world in depth. Failing that, we are doomed to the sentence history has passed on many an insular 'Middle Kingdom'.
------------------
'A set of local sovereign states can be no more than a transitory political configuration.'- Toynbee
'Well, what do we do now?'
'I know! Let's just be snobby and rude to all Americans from now on!!!'
'Hear hear!'
Imbued in the American character is a sense of the new, and a disdain for the old. The earth that we walk here in the western hemisphere simply does not KNOW the history that any given plot in Europe would. Just about every speck of civilization in Europe has SOME historical significance, SOMETHING happened there...in America, towns bust with civic pride because obscure sitcom actors went to their high school. If you ask any given Virginian in Spotsylvania about the numerous civil war battles that occured there, you'll encounter just as much historical knowledge as you'd find in an Alsatian asked about the Franco-Prussian war.
Ours is a naturally insular culture...history and flanking oceans have made this so. Our alleged (though I believe real) hegemony over world affairs and culture is relatively new, and our recent conduct (missle defense shield, etc.) shows just how novice we are in the ways of the world. I'm not saying that this is right; it's just the way it is.
European history is my passion. I love nothing more than walking down a winding Italian street, just inhaling the essence of past events that soak everything around me. Europeans take such historical richness for granted. In the midwestern state where I attend university, no structure EXISTS that was made by human hands before 1850. Just keep that in mind. I am no apologist, if America is to justify her leading role in world affairs, her children MUST be made to KNOW the world in depth. Failing that, we are doomed to the sentence history has passed on many an insular 'Middle Kingdom'.
------------------
'A set of local sovereign states can be no more than a transitory political configuration.'- Toynbee
Well said Mariani. I echo your thoughts exactly. I travel to Europe every several years just to recapture the sense of place and time for here in America there is little to locate one's self in the panorama of human history. Like yourself, strolls through Italian streets have a remarkable effect on me and my sense of consciense. I intend to travel there this summer as well with the same intention of better centering myself in the cradle of western civilization.
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~ Salve ~
[This message has been edited by Savant (edited 02-02-2001).]
It should be noted when discussing the US education system that a significant portion of American children are sent to private schools. When I left my CA public school in the eighth grade, some of my (former) classmates were quite illiterate. Before graduating from the ninth grade (in the private school), all students were required to draw a map of the world, including all countries, freehand. Same country, different income levels...
As an American, a teacher, and having lived in 4 different European counties over a 15 year span, I would like to offer my viewpoint on the subject at hand.
Europeans are quite correct in their belief that many American children are ignorant (implies lack of knowledge, NOT stupidity) of virtually all facets of European geography, culture, and history. Throw in Asian and African geography, history, and culture, too.
I live in Missouri, very close to the confluence of the Mississippi and Missouri rivers, two of the largest rivers in the world. There is tremendous history and culture here too....but of a different kind.
Louis Blanchette (a Frenchman) built a landing just a few miles down the road on the Missouri river, in 1786.
Samuel Clemens (better known as Mark Twain)was born and raised about 100 kilometers north of here. He is known primarily for writing Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn.
The basic problem here, is that from where I am right now, there are no other countries within about a 1000 kilometer radius. There is no sense of immediacy, no sense of need to learn about other counties. Sad, but true.
The American educational system has great potential. For students willing to work, an excellent university education is available, without regards to cost, class, race, or social standing. This is not generally the case throughout the world. Try getting into Sandhurst or Eton without being in the English upper class.
As a proud father of a 20 year old now attending an excellent university, I could go on for quite some time. She is a great kid, and I am absolutly sure she knows where the equator is.
There IS a certain amout of snobbishness from many non-Americans, whose value systems and beliefs are different from our own. I can't help that, nor can I change it.
To imply that Americans are stupid is absurd. People are people. Americans ARE Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, British, French, etc. All four of my grandparents came to the United States via boat in the 1920's. My father did not learn English as his primary language. Our country is the stronger for it. The weak and lazy complained and stayed home, the strong and adventerous came to America. This belief is widely accepted here in the US.
The foreign policy of the US is occasionally not rational, but our heart is generally in the right place.
My daughter plans on joining the Peace Corp in about a year. She is completely fluent in Spanish, and has intermediate proficiency in both Russian and Mandarin Chinese.
I will surely be flamed for these comments, and that's OK, too. All are entitled to their opinion, equally so.
One last comment. While living in East Anglia, northeast of London, I made several friends of local Englishmen. One night, in a pub, I referenced myself as a Yank. Keith, one of the locals, corrected me, and said I was not a Yank, but an American. You see, there is a difference. The difference is in how you treat others - with courtesy, dignity, and respect.
Comments?
DSvitak
Europeans are quite correct in their belief that many American children are ignorant (implies lack of knowledge, NOT stupidity) of virtually all facets of European geography, culture, and history. Throw in Asian and African geography, history, and culture, too.
I live in Missouri, very close to the confluence of the Mississippi and Missouri rivers, two of the largest rivers in the world. There is tremendous history and culture here too....but of a different kind.
Louis Blanchette (a Frenchman) built a landing just a few miles down the road on the Missouri river, in 1786.
Samuel Clemens (better known as Mark Twain)was born and raised about 100 kilometers north of here. He is known primarily for writing Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn.
The basic problem here, is that from where I am right now, there are no other countries within about a 1000 kilometer radius. There is no sense of immediacy, no sense of need to learn about other counties. Sad, but true.
The American educational system has great potential. For students willing to work, an excellent university education is available, without regards to cost, class, race, or social standing. This is not generally the case throughout the world. Try getting into Sandhurst or Eton without being in the English upper class.
As a proud father of a 20 year old now attending an excellent university, I could go on for quite some time. She is a great kid, and I am absolutly sure she knows where the equator is.
There IS a certain amout of snobbishness from many non-Americans, whose value systems and beliefs are different from our own. I can't help that, nor can I change it.
To imply that Americans are stupid is absurd. People are people. Americans ARE Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, British, French, etc. All four of my grandparents came to the United States via boat in the 1920's. My father did not learn English as his primary language. Our country is the stronger for it. The weak and lazy complained and stayed home, the strong and adventerous came to America. This belief is widely accepted here in the US.
The foreign policy of the US is occasionally not rational, but our heart is generally in the right place.
My daughter plans on joining the Peace Corp in about a year. She is completely fluent in Spanish, and has intermediate proficiency in both Russian and Mandarin Chinese.
I will surely be flamed for these comments, and that's OK, too. All are entitled to their opinion, equally so.
One last comment. While living in East Anglia, northeast of London, I made several friends of local Englishmen. One night, in a pub, I referenced myself as a Yank. Keith, one of the locals, corrected me, and said I was not a Yank, but an American. You see, there is a difference. The difference is in how you treat others - with courtesy, dignity, and respect.
Comments?
DSvitak
Some very well written posts here. And thanks
to folks like Peter, Gelete, and Viking we can see that the stereotype that Europeans are snobs is also not true. Unfortunately, these anti-American insults occur far too often in these forums (I have been lurking here since August). It would be nice to see our moderators taking a firmer stand against them. 'It's a matter of acting responsibly and with manners', Sapura wrote earlier, but only when someone's girlfriend's mother made a comment against Poland. Yes, I know he isn't the moderator of this particular forum, but he does represent Paradox.
There will be more and more Americans coming to these forums once the game is released. What sort of forum does Paradox wish to have? One that is welcoming to this rash of newcomers, or one full of flame wars?
------------------
Bernhard R.
[This message has been edited by Ami Hund (edited 02-02-2001).]
to folks like Peter, Gelete, and Viking we can see that the stereotype that Europeans are snobs is also not true. Unfortunately, these anti-American insults occur far too often in these forums (I have been lurking here since August). It would be nice to see our moderators taking a firmer stand against them. 'It's a matter of acting responsibly and with manners', Sapura wrote earlier, but only when someone's girlfriend's mother made a comment against Poland. Yes, I know he isn't the moderator of this particular forum, but he does represent Paradox.
There will be more and more Americans coming to these forums once the game is released. What sort of forum does Paradox wish to have? One that is welcoming to this rash of newcomers, or one full of flame wars?
------------------
Bernhard R.
[This message has been edited by Ami Hund (edited 02-02-2001).]
Throwing in my two cents (well ANOTHER two cents).
I must remind everybody that American history is pretty recent...Discounting native americans (which have a VERY interesting history... go and learn ) it has more or less 300 years... if you compare that to the 'classic' European history (which goes back to Mesopotamia and the likes) it's VERY VERY short... the problem here is that (altough I'm not knowledgeble about how history is taugh in the US) it isn't easy to interested the AVERAGE kid in the history of other places than not their country (I suffer the opposite syndrome... I'm just now beginning to get an interest for Portuguese history).
But even in Europe we have great flaws... Eastern history is seldom taught and frankly that's a big mistake... we in Portugal do get some Arabe history (for obvious reasons) but how about the rest of Europe (except Spain of course, again for obvious reasons).
On geography... how about Europeans thinking of the US as NYC and Wild West? It's not easy for anyone... nonetheless the attitude problem still exists... some people (i.e. citizens of any said country) will tend to think they only need to know about themselves and not the others... and I'm NOT talking about the US (though it could happen but I never stumbled upon any of those Americans)...
I believe schools are degenerating everywhere... for several reasons! I believe also that the teaching of the 'heroics' of our countries is being replaced by the teaching of those bad parts that ALWAYS happens... I remember a thread over nationalism... altough exagerated nationalism is awful and should be avoided so are the current 'east-wing' politics that tend to diminuish glory that did happen...
All of this reminds me of a debate we had some time here in Portugal because of the appologies to the Jews by the Germans and the Catholic Church... well... our President had the BRIGHT idea of appologizing to the native Brazilians for the massacres we commited, for slavery, etc etc etc... it's STUPID.... how about we demanding the arabs to apologize for the peninsular invasions? the romans? the celts? We don't... we are proud of the inheritance we got from them... of course horrible things must have happened but that's the way history and culture advances... it's the way MAN is... we should learn to face and live with OUR history and OUR ancestors and move on... and we really should taught all of this to our children...
(Gelete... I love Evora too ehehehhe it's a bit far from my home nevertheless... I'm from Porto... have a good trip and enjoy yourself)
Cheers,
Carlos
I must remind everybody that American history is pretty recent...Discounting native americans (which have a VERY interesting history... go and learn
) it has more or less 300 years... if you compare that to the 'classic' European history (which goes back to Mesopotamia and the likes) it's VERY VERY short... the problem here is that (altough I'm not knowledgeble about how history is taugh in the US) it isn't easy to interested the AVERAGE kid in the history of other places than not their country (I suffer the opposite syndrome... I'm just now beginning to get an interest for Portuguese history).But even in Europe we have great flaws... Eastern history is seldom taught and frankly that's a big mistake... we in Portugal do get some Arabe history (for obvious reasons) but how about the rest of Europe (except Spain of course, again for obvious reasons).
On geography... how about Europeans thinking of the US as NYC and Wild West?
It's not easy for anyone... nonetheless the attitude problem still exists... some people (i.e. citizens of any said country) will tend to think they only need to know about themselves and not the others... and I'm NOT talking about the US (though it could happen but I never stumbled upon any of those Americans)...I believe schools are degenerating everywhere... for several reasons! I believe also that the teaching of the 'heroics' of our countries is being replaced by the teaching of those bad parts that ALWAYS happens... I remember a thread over nationalism... altough exagerated nationalism is awful and should be avoided so are the current 'east-wing' politics that tend to diminuish glory that did happen...
All of this reminds me of a debate we had some time here in Portugal because of the appologies to the Jews by the Germans and the Catholic Church... well... our President had the BRIGHT idea of appologizing to the native Brazilians for the massacres we commited, for slavery, etc etc etc... it's STUPID.... how about we demanding the arabs to apologize for the peninsular invasions? the romans? the celts? We don't... we are proud of the inheritance we got from them... of course horrible things must have happened but that's the way history and culture advances... it's the way MAN is... we should learn to face and live with OUR history and OUR ancestors and move on... and we really should taught all of this to our children...
(Gelete... I love Evora too ehehehhe it's a bit far from my home nevertheless... I'm from Porto... have a good trip and enjoy yourself)
Cheers,
Carlos
As being a German myself, I think it is right to remember history and what happened. Even though I am two generations behind what happened actually in the third Reich (my parents were born after the war), it is quite important to have an awareness of what happened in history (and to let something like that never happen again). And, believe it or not, people in Israel are still suffering from something called the 'second order holocaust syndrome', which means that they were not involved themselves, but their families were completely wiped out. I think it is not wrong to say that I am sorry for what my ancestors did, although I never had anything to do with it.
[This message has been edited by daboese (edited 02-02-2001).]
[This message has been edited by daboese (edited 02-02-2001).]
to dsvitak:
no flames for you, you were to nice and polite.
some good points...
Now to all: < i will be flamed for this big time >
I am very tired of this argument but what I have to loose?
Why every time someone points out a fault in American system all most of US citizens are angry and very defensive. Am I wrong to say that most of American schools don't teach Geography or history as well as Europeans? I have the right to it. From my experience it is true. I am not saying that Americans are stupid or that all of them don't know history of geography. I am saying that large portion of them don't know that stuff. Large portion dose not care about it, large portion levees high school or collage not knowing it.
I am sure you can find many thing wrong with my country and that is OK. I will not say that you have the same problem so f**k off, or shut up. I will try to change that. On this forum any attempt to criticism US ( in polite way or not) is flamed all the time. Question is why such a large portion of Europeans say that, or why so many Europeans that live in US say that. Are they all imaging it. People give excuse that most of kids are not interested in history that is why they don't know it. Well, in may country they don't care if you interested or not, you have to know it. If not you will not finish school. That is not the case in US.
If Americans are smart and educated sufficiently to go to war with other country they better be educated about it as well. US is the largest kid on the block with power to destroy any country, the fact that it may be ruined by people who are ignorant about others freaks me out.
It is not a excuse that other countries have worst education than US. Us as a leader should have the best. Its kids should know about all countries because US is present everywhere. And to all people that will flame me now I say this: I live in US, if I will have kids I wish for them to have the best education, I wish for them to have friends in school that now something about their origins, I wish my kid could go back to my native country and be able to have normal conversation with my family, not look stupid. To achieve that I have to complain laud about American education..... And there is no excuse for not knowing Geography or History...
no flames for you, you were to nice and polite.
some good points...
Now to all: < i will be flamed for this big time >
I am very tired of this argument but what I have to loose?
Why every time someone points out a fault in American system all most of US citizens are angry and very defensive. Am I wrong to say that most of American schools don't teach Geography or history as well as Europeans? I have the right to it. From my experience it is true. I am not saying that Americans are stupid or that all of them don't know history of geography. I am saying that large portion of them don't know that stuff. Large portion dose not care about it, large portion levees high school or collage not knowing it.
I am sure you can find many thing wrong with my country and that is OK. I will not say that you have the same problem so f**k off, or shut up. I will try to change that. On this forum any attempt to criticism US ( in polite way or not) is flamed all the time. Question is why such a large portion of Europeans say that, or why so many Europeans that live in US say that. Are they all imaging it. People give excuse that most of kids are not interested in history that is why they don't know it. Well, in may country they don't care if you interested or not, you have to know it. If not you will not finish school. That is not the case in US.
If Americans are smart and educated sufficiently to go to war with other country they better be educated about it as well. US is the largest kid on the block with power to destroy any country, the fact that it may be ruined by people who are ignorant about others freaks me out.
It is not a excuse that other countries have worst education than US. Us as a leader should have the best. Its kids should know about all countries because US is present everywhere. And to all people that will flame me now I say this: I live in US, if I will have kids I wish for them to have the best education, I wish for them to have friends in school that now something about their origins, I wish my kid could go back to my native country and be able to have normal conversation with my family, not look stupid. To achieve that I have to complain laud about American education..... And there is no excuse for not knowing Geography or History...
As it was mentioned before, there are reasons for the educational system in the US being that way, and there are still private schools which are quite good.
And as a reply to another comment from an American: You don't have to be upper class to get admitted to Cambridge or Oxford (perhaps Eaton, but who wants to go there?), which are as good as the best American Colleges. And, even better, when you are European, you don't have to pay (or very little compared to Harvard, about $1500 per year)!!!
I asked a lot of students at Rice (supposed to be one of the top 10 colleges in the US) if they would have ever had the possibility to go there without paying, and they declined...
[This message has been edited by daboese (edited 02-02-2001).]
And as a reply to another comment from an American: You don't have to be upper class to get admitted to Cambridge or Oxford (perhaps Eaton, but who wants to go there?), which are as good as the best American Colleges. And, even better, when you are European, you don't have to pay (or very little compared to Harvard, about $1500 per year)!!!
I asked a lot of students at Rice (supposed to be one of the top 10 colleges in the US) if they would have ever had the possibility to go there without paying, and they declined...
[This message has been edited by daboese (edited 02-02-2001).]