Estates Query

[PaulMClem]

I'm getting back into EUIV after a while away and am looking at the Estate mechanic - seems a nice idea i.e. faction led provinces with buffs/nerfs/interactions depending on faction, loyalty, land owned etc. However, I've just watched Johan's EUIV presentation at this year's PDX Con and one of the areas he described as somewhere they "Fucked Up" was estates!

Johan made some reference to them not being part of the free patch and something else about it being a chore to manage when you take over new provinces. Does anyone know in more detail what he was referring to? Why does he regard Estates as something they "Fucked up". Are they really "Fucked up"?

 

[mruuh]

No idea. I've played a few campaigns before estates (so I had some yardstick to measure against), and didn't find them annoying or a chore when I first played with them. Sure, it is one more thing to do when you conquer or otherwise acquire new land, but that's par for the course - new land needs to be divided/assigned and population somehow integrated - so coring and estate assignment feels pretty natural. The UI seems also fine to me - the notifications and estate screens (one in build panel, one in the main 'F1' panel) contained enough info for me to get my bearings pretty quickly.

What I do not like are minor things like lack of yes/no confirmation when activating various estate interactions, but that flaw is there in various other UI elements too, so a player should already be "measuring thrice, clicking once".

 

[PaulMClem]

No idea

Johan did seem genuinely annoyed, had me thinking there was a major flaw. As I said, I like the concept and look forward to using it.

 

[Lystrous]

The fuck up per say was that they didnt make the base estate mechanic free with the patch. So now they cant justify expanding on it too much in future dlc as that would rely on owning cossacs.

 

[ScytheV]

Thats quite strange. Estates are very useful, they can give you mileage from newly conquered provinces instantly, they can give you cheap advisers, free generals, mana and cash, if managed properly. The only time it can be a chore is after some big integration/conquest, and its not THAT bad.
I definitely dont want them to go away. Reworked? Well, that depends on how exactly.

 

[tip001]

The estate mechanic is a complete side game form the main game and as such a bit odd. Its not integrated at all.
Besides that it is regarded as annoying by most casual players as you have to adjust them all the time as you conquer land and you get a lot of events stopping you from playing the main game. By vets its regarded as a nice bonus when min-maxing the shit out of estates for monarch points. Some players like the side game.

I dislike the estates very much as I see it like Johan does. The fact you dont have an option to disable the estates is also highly annoying.
Its part of an DLC which you can disable but then you lose other features which are very good. :O

Hope this helps explaining

 

[MiniaAr]

I like estates a lot, you can get a lot from them all game long. In the beginning, it's even more potent, and that's when it counts actually.

Sure, after a big conquest or vassal integration, you likely have to re-organise them, but I've never found this to be un-manageable.

But I agree that they "f***ed up" a bit, by not making them part of the base game (like institutions).This means that they can not really integrate them fully into the game.

My suggestion to solve this would be:

• Make regular estates part of the main game: Clergy, Nobility, Burghers, Dhimmis, Tribes
• Make local/flavour estates part of different DLCs: Cossacks part of The Cossacks DLC, Qizilbash and/or Mamelukes part of CoC DLC, Janissaries part of Rights of Man DLC, Streltsy for Third Rome, etc... Estates giving a special unit is in my opinion a great way to make flavour estates worthwhile.

I've owned the cossacks DLC from day one, and I wouldn't mind it one bit to see estates become part of the main game, if this means that the feature can be further integrated and expanded.

 

[PaulMClem]

I've owned the cossacks DLC from day one, and I wouldn't mind it one bit to see estates become part of the main game, if this means that the feature can be further integrated and expanded.

Is this something PDX are wary of doing i.e. making a feature free which other people paid for? That said I agree with your take and as long as owners of Cossacks got something, such as the Cossack estate, then where is the harm in releasing the estate mechanic and base factions into the main game. As you say other DLC then add other estates, but everyone has the base mechanic and factions.

 

[SolSys]

The fuck up per say was that they didnt make the base estate mechanic free with the patch. So now they cant justify expanding on it too much in future dlc as that would rely on owning cossacs.

Actually, the issue is with having a deeper integration with base game mechanics rather than simply expanding** on the system.
This stems from the game's balancing being done with all expansions in mind, so a big deviation would require a fork in development -- which they avoid at all costs.

Edit: BTW, the "chore" part is from having to assign estates to provinces after wars which becomes annoying as it stops the flow of the game and is not engaging in a "fun" way.


**they do expand on older DLC mechanics -- they are smaller in scope, but still.

 

[SolSys]

My suggestion to solve this would be:

There won't be much of estates to be left in a DLC that way.

Wouldn't a better division of the system into free/DLC be something like:
1. Free - Assign estates to provinces for the base effects.
2. DLC - Estate interactions/events.

I've owned the cossacks DLC from day one, and I wouldn't mind it one bit to see estates become part of the main game, if this means that the feature can be further integrated and expanded.

Not that it matters much, as Johan said in a recent thread about development/estates [STRIKE]no to estates becoming free[/STRIKE] -- though he didn't specify if he meant the above division or just in general.

Correction: The "no" was for the development. The estates portion got a "maybe".

 

[MiniaAr]

@SolSys

Well my suggestion was that DLC estates would give players a special unit type as well as the interactions for this estate. Like the Cossacks estate at this point, but it could be further expanded by giving other special units to specific DLC estates.
If basic estates only gives the base effects and not the interactions, this feels very barebone. As the interactions are actually when you can use the estates's potential.

Also, estates aren't supposed to be the only thing coming with a DLC. But each DLC could add a local estate relevant to the theme of the DLC, on top of other features of course. Like the Cossacks estates would be one of the many features of the Cossacks DLC. And if estates would have been included in the base game from the start, then Paradox could have added a Janissary estate to Rights of Man (with the Ottoman government), a Streltsy estate to Third Rome, a Qizilbash estate to Cradle of Civilisation, a Corsair estate to Mare Nostrum (for berbers), etc...
This would have reduced the Cossacks DLC value by a small amount, but enhanced all later DLCs. A good trade-off in my opinion.

 

[Badesumofu]

[QUOTE="SolSys, post: 23560367, member: 731283]



Not that it matters much, as Johan said in a recent thread about development/estates no to estates becoming free -- though he didn't specify if he meant the above division or just in general.[/QUOTE]

He said no to development and 'maybe' to Estates.

 

[SolSys]

He said no to development and 'maybe' to Estates.

You're quite right -- memory isn't what it used to

Original post corrected.

 

[PaulMClem]

You're quite right -- memory isn't what it used to
Original post corrected.

Do you have a link to this thread? Always enjoy reading Johan's thoughts.

 

[SolSys]

If basic estates only gives the base effects and not the interactions, this feels very barebone. As the interactions are actually when you can use the estates's potential.

That is, I'd say, the main point.

This is basically the same as adding new governments to the base game, but leaving all the special interactions in a DLC.

This would have reduced the Cossacks DLC value by a small amount, but enhanced all later DLCs. A good trade-off in my opinion.

Maybe, but that is main selling point of that DLC.

Also, there is nothing stopping PDS from reworking special units to using the estate tab. In fact, it could make things easier to manage/handle for the player if it is done from a central [similar] location for all those special units.

 

[SolSys]

Do you have a link to this thread? Always enjoy reading Johan's thoughts.

Here you go: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/making-development-estates-free.1055041/

I found it somewhat refreshing as it was suggesting a bare-bones version of estates** instead of the usual demand of making it entirely free -- even if I didn't agree with the suggested division.

Edit: the thread title was rather misleading, probably making some users skip it entirely -- I almost did the same.


**inspired by the planned Stellaris change to ascension perks.