Estates feel like too much Micromanagement

[TheMeInTeam]

You don´t mind that this mechanic is event driven or forces you to fight stupid event rebels? Now imagine if every mechanic in-game was event driven, instead of interacting with the world trough diplomacy you´d be clicking events. The pre-Cossacks amount of events was already enough to annoy me because I don´t like generic events that are about stuff absent from the game like the failed administration event that talks about justice for the people (you know the non-existing justice or people mechanics); IMO events only make sense if motivated by stuff going on in the game. Now I have to endure a lot more stupid events/clicking than before when I only care with the actual game which is the diplomatic one.

I don't like the fake difficulty aspect of having to know the events, but staying sub-59% influence and otherwise ignoring them what events are you referring to? Admittedly I haven't tried the horde stuff yet so maybe that's pretty bad, but for generic nations in India/Europe/Africa/New World I'm not seeing estates tossing many rebels my way so far. The real screw jobs are still crap like "here have a 20 legitimacy ruler" wrt rebels, and the fact that they swapped base rebel size from 3 --> 4 and added more rebels/development scaling.

 

[GC13]

so by that logic i should also honor the feudal contract of Andalusian muslims after the Reconquista?

Muslim territories didn't work that way. They had local notables, but no feudal lords.

 

[Small]

The whole point is that you have to manage your estates.

yes which would be fine if it the there was a better detail as to why there disloyal rather than a tab saying give more clay, and as for the random event that's basically RNG luck and there is a few games out there which are great examples as to why not a great thing to have as a major game mechanic.

 

[grommile]

Do estates keep wanting more and more? My tool tip says stuff like 15%.

You guys are saying you can't possibly give them any more land?

Try playing a republic in a low-development part of the map. In republics (unlike monarchies), you have to give the burghers land to keep them happy - but you can only give the burghers a province if it's worth at least 10 development or 5 trade power.

Even if you don't have any provinces that fit that description.

 

[Subbak]

so your telling me that the fact that i'm lenient towards the english nobles who displaced the french nobility shouldn't annoy my french nobility? "wow, the English tried to conquer our land and displace our people, but god forbid the king revokes their titles, BLASPHEMY"

At least a decent part of that nobility is going to be French. Normandy (and later Aquitaine) basically went back and forth between England and France ever since William of Normandy became king of England in 1066. And they didn't oust the nobles every time, you just got counts and barons who either swore fealty to one king or another.

 

[WeissRaben]

so by that logic i should also honor the feudal contract of Andalusian muslims after the Reconquista?

No! And, in fact, estates of a different religion are removed upon conquest.

 

[Subbak]

Try playing a republic in a low-development part of the map. In republics (unlike monarchies), you have to give the burghers land to keep them happy - but you can only give the burghers a province if it's worth at least 10 development or 5 trade power.

Even if you don't have any provinces that fit that description.

Supid question: does such a republic exist in 1444? With enough provinces to have estates?

 

[grommile]

Supid question: does such a republic exist in 1444? With enough provinces to have estates?

No, but the custom nation builder will let you build one.

(Ignore what I said about Novgorod, MRs don't have estates.)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Supid question: does such a republic exist in 1444? With enough provinces to have estates?

You can get the same issue (have estates you can't possibly give land) by forming Tibet. It's not just custom nations.

 

[doktorstick]

so your telling me that the fact that i'm lenient towards the english nobles who displaced the french nobility shouldn't annoy my french nobility? "wow, the English tried to conquer our land and displace our people, but god forbid the king revokes their titles, BLASPHEMY"

social class is important yes, but the most import thing here should be the FRENCH social class, i should not be expected to care about the english and what they promised THEIR estates when i reconquer my french cores

The key phrase here is "reconquer[ed] my friench cores". If you conquer English lands, should you be able to toss them out? After your core it? 20 years after it's been your core (consistently; i.e., hasn't changed hands)? 50?

The penalty should be proportional to how long you've had the core. If you conquer rightfully english lands, then on day 1, tossing out the english would be 100% penalty. After 20 years? 50%. 40 years? 0%. Something like that. Maybe.

 

[InFerroVeritas]

so by that logic i should also honor the feudal contract of Andalusian muslims after the Reconquista?

It's already been mentioned that different religions have their estates removed upon conquest. But I want to point out just how far off base this is. Your specific example earlier was England and France, two nations that battled over territory that changed hands several times prior to finally stabilizing (more or less) after the HYW. The King of England was even, at one point, a subject to the King of France by virtue of his status as Duke of Aquitaine. That is not at all analogous to the sorts of winner-take-all wars that characterized Iberia prior to the completion of the Reconquista. Religion was a much bigger deal than what language you spoke. Especially since if you traveled three days in any given direction the language being used was probably different.

 

[Trasymachos2]

Every estate has one of these events that add 10 or less likely 20 influence (determined before you click the button so the tooltip will tell you how much). They can't retrigger until the effect from the event wears off. There is also a companion event that reduces influence without you doing anything that follows the same rules.

The problem, as I see it, is that it is very hard to increase loyalty without at the same time increasing influence. The options that let you do so are very few, and you are limited in how often you can use them. If there were just a couple more options for fine-tuning the balance of influence and loyalty, or if adding and removing provinces didnt have, respectively, a larger positive effect on influence vs loyalty and larger negative effect on loyalty vs influence, then the estates would be a lot more enjoyable to interact with. Another option is to halve the impact on influence for all interactions and events, which would make the system much less volatile, and in my opinion far more interesting.

As the system is currently you are de facto encouraged to avoid using any of the powerful estate interaction options, because the impact on your nation should you be so unlucky to get an event increasing influence for an already powerful faction is so very high.

 

[Ilightmaster]

I like the estates mecanics but clearly tooltips aren't clear enough and need a hotfix, espacially french tooltips that are completly lying about what would happen.

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

I don't like the fake difficulty aspect of having to know the events, but staying sub-59% influence and otherwise ignoring them what events are you referring to?

I am talking about events that IIRC give loyalty for fighting the rebels or forfeits it if you don´t do it. I saw them when playing a nation in the new world (I can´t touch hordes until they fix the pop up issue that auto un-pauses the game). Unlike for example power projection there is no way to ignore these mechanic/events without nasty consequences that lead to massive stab hits, massive rebellions (low stab triggering disasters, direct unrest, you name it) and huge loss of points and legitimacy (hello rebels and civil war disaster which "coincidentally" also gives more rebels) due to events. The best way to ignore as much as possible this nuisance short of disabling the dlc is to simply exploit it by only expanding overseas, click the goddamn events and milk the estates when the time comes. Simple but requires lots of clicking and is not engaging not even by a little bit (…)

 

[jebates]

I feel like the event pulse governing influence/loyalty choices is a little too frequent. And I would rather that they be a little more straightforwardly "pay money for + loyalty and -influence" then the current mix and match of +loyalty and +influence.

I would also rather estates be automatically assigned to provinces and that you should, as ruler, only be able to 'support' (i.e. get the most benefits from) one faction at a time, like how the current monarch point 'national focus' works.

 

[Nazarow]

If there were just a couple more options for fine-tuning the balance of influence and loyalty, or if adding and removing provinces didnt have, respectively, a larger positive effect on influence vs loyalty and larger negative effect on loyalty vs influence, then the estates would be a lot more enjoyable to interact with.

This. The more I'm playing, the more I'm liking the Estates mechanic, it just needs a few tweaks like the one suggested here to make it really enjoyable. I really do hope that future patches will do this.

 

[User4035]

Try playing a republic in a low-development part of the map. In republics (unlike monarchies), you have to give the burghers land to keep them happy - but you can only give the burghers a province if it's worth at least 10 development or 5 trade power.

Even if you don't have any provinces that fit that description.

I had this happen with Hungary. And it was not a republic. Once I gave it a 10 development province I could then add other ones regardless of development.

 

[nwil10]

If it is not adjacent to them and they don´t have a claim or core forget about it but I digress. Yes, giving our cores away is well worth it for the whopping bonuses the estates provide.

You can annex the vassal in ten years. Its a Band-Aid but it would work in a pinch.

You could also create a vassal in a province of that estate, assuming its the right size and not Guyenne or something.
You could increase development in your capital or other non-estate province to reduce the influence of that estate.
You could increase development in another estates province to boosts its influence and reducing the problematic estates influence.
You could conquer another country's province to reduce the estates influence, assuming it doesn't have the same estate.

You have 8.33 years (1% per month) to find a solution before the disaster happens. Its possible that one on the events or choices that increase influence that you made will expire reducing said influence. Its not like you have to make a choice in the next month or a massive amount or rebels will appear.

I understand your frustration given the estates, but that's what they are there for. To show that monarchs didn't have full control over their nation and they had to, from time to time, give in to what their vassals wanted. Please take Fredrick III of Austria as an example, he was the Emperor for a loooong time and it took decades to stabilize his realm due to internal and external threats.

I am perfectly fine with the randomness of it all (the events). A monarch would not be able to keep his subject's interest the same as his own over the years. I do wish that the loyalty / influence were tied to his/her legitimacy, though. They should be given large amounts of influence when a decision is made when the monarch had a low legitimacy and vice versa when the monarch had a firm control on the country.

 

[InFerroVeritas]

It increments at +2 if you're at 85 influence. It may well increment faster at higher levels of influence. Doesn't change most of your points, though.

The only thing that really bothers me is having an estate float at about 60 influence and then getting the +influence event. It's weighted so that four of every five of those events will only give you +10 but that still means there's a one in five chance of getting the +20 influence. You can easily wind up inching towards the disaster without even enacting one of the +influence decisions (Diet, New World stuff).

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

You can annex the vassal in ten years. Its a Band-Aid but it would work in a pinch.

You could also create a vassal in a province of that estate, assuming its the right size and not Guyenne or something.
You could increase development in your capital or other non-estate province to reduce the influence of that estate.
You could increase development in another estates province to boosts its influence and reducing the problematic estates influence.
You could conquer another country's province to reduce the estates influence, assuming it doesn't have the same estate.

You have 8.33 years (1% per month) to find a solution before the disaster happens. Its possible that one on the events or choices that increase influence that you made will expire reducing said influence. Its not like you have to make a choice in the next month or a massive amount or rebels will appear.

I understand your frustration given the estates, but that's what they are there for. To show that monarchs didn't have full control over their nation and they had to, from time to time, give in to what their vassals wanted. Please take Fredrick III of Austria as an example, he was the Emperor for a loooong time and it took decades to stabilize his realm due to internal and external threats.

I am perfectly fine with the randomness of it all (the events). A monarch would not be able to keep his subject's interest the same as his own over the years. I do wish that the loyalty / influence were tied to his/her legitimacy, though. They should be given large amounts of influence when a decision is made when the monarch had a low legitimacy and vice versa when the monarch had a firm control on the country.

Thanks but those are all inefficient ways to spend monarch points, for going to war or event for releasing a vassal especially considering the possible benefits in question. FYI the disaster progress is not fixed at 1%, in a couple of brief test games I´ve seen it tick at least 4% and ended up in a massive -3 stab hit. For all that I´ve said before the current implementation and balance of the estates mechanics receives a solid 1/10 from me. It receives a 1 rating only because rebel faction v.2 now gives you something even if pathetic for the amount of micro needed to keep them happy. Regardless with strictly exploitive gameplay they can be useful.