Estates feel like too much Micromanagement

[Subbak]

Yah i totes remember the times when trade companies and merchants of the merchant republics lived peacefully. Oh wait. And what world did non-cultural nobles who fought you keep power? Yet people losing their minds revolting over people they don't even like who lose power is acceptable? Your argument is invalid. If anything the single province should gain revolt risk at best, not the entire faction.

Removing the entire administration from an area you conquered (especially once that sees you as a foreigner) is a recipe for disaster. It was the case 500 years ago, and it's still the case today (just look at what happened in Iraq after US invasion). You want to take out a few key figures to curb the power of the people who were in place before, but rely on the rest to keep the peace while maintaining some continuity.

 

[Khalesh]

I am loving the new free features and reading through the expansion features and seeing the developer diaries and multiplayer videos the only thing that puts me off is the estate management

Unless there is a toggle feature for estates I will not be purchasing this expansion - the level of micro management required for this really puts me off so I completely agree with the OP

 

[exenter]

I am loving the new free features and reading through the expansion features and seeing the developer diaries and multiplayer videos the only thing that puts me off is the estate management

Unless there is a toggle feature for estates I will not be purchasing this expansion - the level of micro management required for this really puts me off so I completely agree with the OP

I agree. You should be able to toggle estates on and off. The same with the new fort ZOC system.

 

[AliasX]

Loving estates, reading this thread, I think one tactic for lowering estate influence deserves some emphasis:

An estate gets up to 50% influence for having one third (33%) of all available development points in its provinces. Increasing total available development points by developing outside of estate lands will decrease the estate share and thus their influence. (hope this is valid for all estates and not just the clergy I was having problems with).

 

[Kapitalisti]

Loving estates, reading this thread, I think one tactic for lowering estate influence deserves some emphasis:

An estate gets up to 50% influence for having one third (33%) of all available development points in its provinces. Increasing total available development points by developing outside of estate lands will decrease the estate share and thus their influence. (hope this is valid for all estates and not just the clergy I was having problems with).

This actually sounds pretty historically plausible.

Related to the Estates: is it possible for an estate to take over? Or are the different disasters the full extent of their fury? Nobles could set up a Noble Republic and the Burghers an Oligarchic Republic or a dictatorship. The clergy taking power and forming a theocracy on the other hand sounds silly.

 

[Nazarow]

one big tweak i think would help a lot would be the ability to swap estates between 2 different provinces without any influence or loyalty penalty other than that caused by any difference in development between the 2 provinces. so for example you have just taken some land and there is a burgher estate in a high military province and a nobility estate in an estuary province you should be able to switch the nobles to the military province and the burghers to the estuary province and neither estate would suffer loyalty or influence changes unless one province had more development then 1 estate would lose loyalty and influence in proportion to the development they lost whilst the other estate would gain the same amount of both. that would let you plan where you put your estates more carefully without tanking the loyalty on your estates whilst still punishing just removing land from an estate.

This is exactly the thing I'd like to see, and have been advocating since Tuesday. Even a smallish penalty for swapping would be all right (or some MP or gold cost), but right now it's just a matter of either never changing province estates, or resetting by taking all of them at once, as has been argued above. That just doesn't make sense, and is not very enjoyable from a game play perspective. If they tweak this I'll feel that the Estates mechanic is a very enjoyable and welcome addition to the game.

 

[EUTony]

We wanted peacetime/internal mechanics and now we complain when we get them

 

[User4035]

Estates is fine. Learn to play.

Every patch is tested by the beta testers so its obviously ready to play.

Any balance bugs or whatever is just because you don't understand the mechanics.

It's not like they rushed the DLC out or anything.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Estates is fine. Learn to play.

Every patch is tested by the beta testers so its obviously ready to play.

Any balance bugs or whatever is just because you don't understand the mechanics.

It's not like they rushed the DLC out or anything.

I don't feel like the implementation of estates is too far off. It's certainly not egregiously broken like ZoC trapping armies to moving between 2 provinces or CTDs. They can be a bit of a nuisance, but generally speaking unless you clump up taking a bunch of one type one can get by just blithely giving estates low development land whenever they start complaining about insufficient territory. Doing so gives you decent bonuses from the 30-60% loyalty range (sometimes >60%).

The one thing that isn't working well right now with estates are the ones that have province requirements. The merchant estate can be annoying, since there are numerous positions in the game where you can't possibly give them any province you own, and yet they're disloyal for that reason. I had this happen as Tibet, and Grommile noticed it happening with a custom nation in place of Mewar (I tried it and wasn't able to give them land until I took a province of Dhundar).

The high influence disaster type stuff is really punitive, from what friends have told me. I haven't let an estate last at 80% long enough for that yet, but a little risk/reward isn't the worst concept. Estates can give you enough stuff that they can speed up your early game rather than slow it down, and speed it up more if you're willing to take small risks.

I haven't done a 1650+ game with them yet though. Possibly they'll be annoying in the "take hundreds of provinces over a short period of time" window.

 

[doktorstick]

The high influence disaster type stuff is really punitive, from what friends have told me. I haven't let an estate last at 80% long enough for that yet, but a little risk/reward isn't the worst concept. Estates can give you enough stuff that they can speed up your early game rather than slow it down, and speed it up more if you're willing to take small risks..

Yeah, there's bit of an oversight in the numbers. At 40% of my lands given to the tribes estate, they revolted and had almost 2x my force limit in rebels. Wat. Should be closer to 40% my force limit plus or minus.

The macrobuilder is for Estates is dumb. It doesn't tell you what you'll be granting a province. It only shows the province with a hatched line if you can build it, or a red-hatched if you cannot.

 

[jayare]

I haven't had a great time with the estates in my Oman game.

The Dhimmi demand land even when there is nothing I can give them.

The Tribes estate also appears to be completely borked. The AI simply can't handle them. As it stands every time I invade a nomadic country I have to account for the fact that I will also have to fight stacks of tribal rebels in order to take the land I want because they inevitably rise up.

 

[Cragspyder]

I don't understand the people complaining about rapidly losing loyalty because they haven't granted enough territory.

As far as i can see, you get an alert popup immediately when you take territory if an estate thinks it doesn't have enough territory. Comes up the same time as the uncored provinces alert. Worst delay might be 1 tick.

So you pause the game, grant territory, unpause. I don't ever unpause after winning a war until i have raised autonomy and started the cores i can, so estates are granted at the same time.

If you're in multiplayer it's probably harder but you're on speed 2 usually anyways. Never played multiplayer so i can't speak to that.

 

[User4035]

Do estates keep wanting more and more? My tool tip says stuff like 15%.

You guys are saying you can't possibly give them any more land?

The loyalty drops when you spend the loyalty on bonus's. The extra monarch points, the advisors, the general, a bunch of heavy ships, etc....
You tank your loyalty for an immediate gain. Then you have to wait.

If you read those tool tips it says their loyalty will be decreased for like 20years.

The whole point is that you have to manage your estates.

 

[Ilightmaster]

French tooltips are lying about estates i reported it in bug section. ( and they are not clear at all )

 

[moglus]

Removing the entire administration from an area you conquered (especially once that sees you as a foreigner) is a recipe for disaster. It was the case 500 years ago, and it's still the case today (just look at what happened in Iraq after US invasion). You want to take out a few key figures to curb the power of the people who were in place before, but rely on the rest to keep the peace while maintaining some continuity.

but that argument fall apart when you consider that this happens to France aswell when they take their french cores in Normandie and Gascogne from England, why should i care about the english nobility in Gascogne? i'm France! king of the FRENCH!

 

[InFerroVeritas]

but that argument fall apart when you consider that this happens to France aswell when they take their french cores in Normandie and Gascogne from England, why should i care about the english nobility in Gascogne? i'm France! king of the FRENCH!

Because it's not what you care about. What you care about is immaterial. It's what your estates care about.

If you move in and suddenly dispossess the local nobility, your own nobility will watch that happen and be like, "wow, our king totally doesn't respect the rights of his noble subjects" and get mad. If you move in and dispossess the local clergy, your own clergy will watch that happen and be like, "wow, our king totally doesn't respect the rights of the Church" and get mad.
If you move in and suddenly dispossess the local burghers, your own burghers will watch that happen and be like, "wow, our king totally doesn't respect the rights and charters of the cities."

Social class was traditionally a much stronger motivation than nationalism, you know.

 

[moglus]

Because it's not what you care about. What you care about is immaterial. It's what your estates care about.

If you move in and suddenly dispossess the local nobility, your own nobility will watch that happen and be like, "wow, our king totally doesn't respect the rights of his noble subjects" and get mad. If you move in and dispossess the local clergy, your own clergy will watch that happen and be like, "wow, our king totally doesn't respect the rights of the Church" and get mad.
If you move in and suddenly dispossess the local burghers, your own burghers will watch that happen and be like, "wow, our king totally doesn't respect the rights and charters of the cities."

Social class was traditionally a much stronger motivation than nationalism, you know.

so your telling me that the fact that i'm lenient towards the english nobles who displaced the french nobility shouldn't annoy my french nobility? "wow, the English tried to conquer our land and displace our people, but god forbid the king revokes their titles, BLASPHEMY"

social class is important yes, but the most import thing here should be the FRENCH social class, i should not be expected to care about the english and what they promised THEIR estates when i reconquer my french cores

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

I don't feel like the implementation of estates is too far off. They can be a bit of a nuisance.

You don´t mind that this mechanic is event driven or forces you to fight stupid event rebels? Now imagine if every mechanic in-game was event driven, instead of interacting with the world trough diplomacy you´d be clicking events. The pre-Cossacks amount of events was already enough to annoy me because I don´t like generic events that are about stuff absent from the game like the failed administration event that talks about justice for the people (you know the non-existing justice or people mechanics); IMO events only make sense if motivated by stuff going on in the game. Now I have to endure a lot more stupid events/clicking than before when I only care with the actual game which is the diplomatic one.

 

[InFerroVeritas]

so your telling me that the fact that i'm lenient towards the english nobles who displaced the french nobility shouldn't annoy my french nobility? "wow, the English tried to conquer our land and displace our people, but god forbid the king revokes their titles, BLASPHEMY"

social class is important yes, but the most import thing here should be the FRENCH social class, i should not be expected to care about the english and what they promised THEIR estates when i reconquer my french cores

Yes. That's exactly what I'm telling you. If the king can do something to foreign nobles, then he can just as easily do it to domestic nobles. A violation of the feudal contract is a violation of the feudal contract, regardless of how many anachronistic labels of nationalism you affix to it.

 

[moglus]

Yes. That's exactly what I'm telling you. If the king can do something to foreign nobles, then he can just as easily do it to domestic nobles. A violation of the feudal contract is a violation of the feudal contract, regardless of how many anachronistic labels of nationalism you affix to it.

so by that logic i should also honor the feudal contract of Andalusian muslims after the Reconquista?