Estates feel like too much Micromanagement

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Kepheren

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Not to mention how conquering land doesn't remove existing estates from the land. My first problem cropped up when I conquered 3 provinces and found out that oops, looks like Castile had Clergy x3 on those. That puts you over 80 influence. No way to find that out beforehand. Just more 'lack of control' attached to the system. I don't even have a problem with the /idea/ of estates carrying over on conquest, just the fact that it can so easily screw you with no warning, no indication that there's something going on behind the scenes of a peacedeal you should be paying attention to.

Actually you can see that there are estates on the land of other countries. I've been going over the provinces of my allies and marveling at how many estates they have. Not sure if I can see that ONLY because they are allies though. Either way this just makes us more cautious about large land grabs and makes eating our neighbors more difficult. Having to wrestle with elements from our own government for control and constantly balancing those conflicting forces....and integrating new lands....just seems more realistic to me.
 
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Peachrocks

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I think some degree of "not being in control" is to be expected.

For sure but there is no control at all. Or the things you DO have control of don't really have that much of an effect. It's all based on events which sure, some of it should be and it should put you in difficult positions at times since most of the game is consistent with this but the way it is right now there's no trade offs other then outright taking control away from a problematic group to shut them up.

Some people seem to like such chaos but may I remind people this is first and foremost a strategy game not a simulator? Some degree of luck is okay but when a mechanic is almost entirely dictated by luck it's generally not considering good in a strategy game by anybody competent.
 
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TyrannisUmbra

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Every estate has one of these events that add 10 or less likely 20 influence (determined before you click the button so the tooltip will tell you how much). They can't retrigger until the effect from the event wears off. There is also a companion event that reduces influence without you doing anything that follows the same rules.

The problem here is that the existence of these events simply ruins the entire system because there's always the threat of +20 influence hanging over your head. It means you can never use any combination of actions for your estates that raise their influence above 59 (Which is most of them -- min 50 + 15 influence from clicking the action = 65 influence minimum for using it). The only recourse is then to start revoking estates, which VERY quickly lowers loyalty, giving you the /opposite/ side of the spectrum with even more bad events (-2 stab and peasant rebels in every owned (???? by the estate? I clicked the button and got no rebels even though it said spawn rebels "in every owned province") province, to name one) and passives. So then the only way to /raise/ loyalty at that point is to pay ludicrous amounts of resources (100ish ducats for +10! Really!? I didn't even have 30 ducats in the bank!) or to give the estates more land... but oops, can't do that because they're already at too much influence.

If those events also raised/lowered loyalty respectively (raise with adding influence, lowered with subtracting influence), then they'd be /okay/. But as it is the only thing they do is screw you at inopportune times. Because while they may not be that common, you have to always expect them to happen, in a 'everything that can go wrong, will go wrong' kind of way.

Actually you can see that there are estates on the land of other countries. I've been going over the provinces of my allies and marveling at how many estates they have. Not sure if I can see that ONLY because they are allies though. Either way this just makes us more cautious about large land grabs and makes eating our neighbors more difficult. Having to wrestle with elements from our own government for control and constantly balancing those conflicting forces....and integrating new lands....just seems more realistic to me.

You can see that they exist on that land, but there's no indication anywhere as to how it would affect your nation if you conquered those provinces. Sure, that province has nobles. But how will that affect /my/ estates? In fact, where's the indication in the peace screen showing what the estates on these provinces are? Sure, I can leave the peace screen and check them, but only if I know beforehand that they get carried over, and it assumes they don't do something silly between the last time I checked like say, add a whole bunch of the same estate to those provinces right before they accept the peacedeal (since it seems like you can assign estates at any time, even if a province is occupied? Works with rebel occupation, for sure. Not sure on nation occupation, but afaik rebel and nation occupation are treated the same way.)
 
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Kepheren

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You can see that they exist on that land, but there's no indication anywhere as to how it would affect your nation if you conquered those provinces. Sure, that province has nobles. But how will that affect /my/ estates? In fact, where's the indication in the peace screen showing what the estates on these provinces are? Sure, I can leave the peace screen and check them, but only if I know beforehand that they get carried over, and it assumes they don't do something silly between the last time I checked like say, add a whole bunch of the same estate to those provinces right before they accept the peacedeal (since it seems like you can assign estates at any time, even if a province is occupied? Works with rebel occupation, for sure. Not sure on nation occupation, but afaik rebel and nation occupation are treated the same way.)

Sorry but I'm still not seeing the big problem with it. I realized that a province I was taking had an estate on it and did a bit of manual calculation (guesstimation?) and figured out what would happen when it became part of my country. Admittedly I got a bit burned but am kind of figuring the first game or two is like a test run to get the feel of the new content. Mistakes and/or disasters are likely but with practice it shouldn't be too bad. Besides, if the AI can add estates between the time you send them a peace deal and they accept then it probably is a glitch and will likely be closed up with the first patch.
 
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Someone complaining about micromanagement in a grand strategy game seems almost ironic to me...

only thing i have issue with is the impact on local autonomy. granted i do not know/understand the full benefits of these estates yet, but 25% LA is a lot.
 
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FleetingRain

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Is there a non-province way influence can be decreased? It seems the only way is to reduce their control (-2 control = -1 influence = -2 loyalty), so you'd remove provinces and then throw ducats at them to recover loyalty. Is that so?
 

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Someone complaining about micromanagement in a grand strategy game seems almost ironic to me...

only thing i have issue with is the impact on local autonomy. granted i do not know/understand the full benefits of these estates yet, but 25% LA is a lot.

That depends which provinces you're giving said LA and what you're getting from the estate. You can sit on pretty impressive benefits in the >60% loyalty range and if not taking the extras still be ~50% influence or less, or time the purchase of a reduced-cost advisor before conquest of additional provinces that don't have that type to shave influence (or just do it after a 10% event)...same deal for monarch points up-front if you have the money for advisors.

The estates don't bother me too much as a mechanic though as usual with these kinds of new mechanics their use is a bit more nuanced than any documentation would let a typical player do initially.

And there is such a thing as bad micro in grand strategy. I don't think estates fit that bill, but bad micro is mundane/constant tasks where you don't have to think much/at all. The old curia and current parliament tuning are examples.
 
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I don't mind the micromanagement (as long as it's meaningful), but I do mind the inability to swap provinces around between estates. The loyalty malus for taking one away is way too large relative to the bonus of granting one. Being stuck with conquered province estates is just no gameplay fun, and actually not even that realistic: internal politics was all about give and take, and land did get traded quite frequently in real life.
 
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Well if the malus for revoking provinces actually ticked down it wouldn't be so bad. But as far as I can tell the only way to get rid of it (permanently) is to give them way more land than you took from them. Which means even more influence for them, unless youäre expanding... so once again we have a mechanic that favours playing wide, even when it's a mechanic that really should be favouring playing tall.

Don't get me wrong the estates are still lots of fun but if I wasn't playing a nation with acess to non overseas colonies this would probably be really hard.
 
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Kepheren

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As an interesting aside I just got an interesting event in my Milan game. Can't remember the name of it but the nobles and clergy were arguing over who was the legal grantee of a province, in this case Brescia. I had the choice to side with nobles which would give them a big bump in loyalty and influence or with the clergy for the same effect. Or you could refuse to take part at all which dropped both of their loyalties. *doh*

At any rate my nobles were already way too powerful for me to be able to handle the jump in influence the event would give so I sided with the Clergy. On the plus side I had been studying my next conquests and had stopped short from taking Romagna since it had nobles in an estate there. Now I'm going to declare war on the Papal State and since it will be full of nobles if I win hopefully that will soothe their hurt feelings a bit over the earlier event.

Wish me luck!
 
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And there is such a thing as bad micro in grand strategy. I don't think estates fit that bill, but bad micro is mundane/constant tasks where you don't have to think much/at all. The old curia and current parliament tuning are examples.
To me these estates are almost on par with managing rebel factions but the main difference is that you do get a benefit from the time spent managing them. The main issue here is that just like pretty much everything else in-game it can end in pointless and mindboggling annoying rebel whack-a-mole. Estates as a mini-game with moderate bonuses and penalties dependent on management but completely unrelated to rebels would be a great addition but nope @Wiz is simply too fond of rebels to design such thing.
 
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Nazarow

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Well if the malus for revoking provinces actually ticked down it wouldn't be so bad. But as far as I can tell the only way to get rid of it (permanently) is to give them way more land than you took from them. Which means even more influence for them, unless youäre expanding... so once again we have a mechanic that favours playing wide, even when it's a mechanic that really should be favouring playing tall.

Exactly. There is nothing wrong with paying a price for taking away land from an estate (even if you give them other land in return). But right now it's prohibitively costly, taking away control, fun as well as realism.
 
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Parsidius

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If you conquer land you indeed keep the landed powerholders in that land unless they're from another religion. As a Christian you won't have to unland Ulema in conquered lands but you will have to honor the agreements other rulers made with the Church or face the consequences.
To take another example Burghers in Riga will be upset if you revoke the city privileges for Burghers in newly conquered Danzig, even if those privileges were not granted by you personally.

Couldn't such anger just be represented by the RR from a newly conquered province, as is?
 
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blackchoas

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Couldn't such anger just be represented by the RR from a newly conquered province, as is?
not really since its not just the Burghers in Danzig that are mad about the curtailing of the rights of Burghers in Danzig, all of the Burghers in your nation would be upset about that

also being upset and violently revolting aren't always the same thing, which estates actually conveys

To me these estates are almost on par with managing rebel factions but the main difference is that you do get a benefit from the time spent managing them. The main issue here is that just like pretty much everything else in-game it can end in pointless and mindboggling annoying rebel whack-a-mole. Estates as a mini-game with moderate bonuses and penalties dependent on management but completely unrelated to rebels would be a great addition but nope @Wiz is simply too fond of rebels to design such thing.
Yeah it can end in rebels if you attempt to completely strip away an estates rights and power, stripping away the estates is literally like gaining -200 tyranny in CK2, is it even realistic to do that and not have people revolt or attempt to kill you? How would you suggest estates react to attempts to completely undermine their power and abolish their rights if not revolt?
 

BarrosRodrigues

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Yeah it can end in rebels if you attempt to completely strip away an estates rights and power, stripping away the estates is literally like gaining -200 tyranny in CK2, is it even realistic to do that and not have people revolt or attempt to kill you? How would you suggest estates react to attempts to completely undermine their power and abolish their rights if not revolt?
Yes for a game that is almost 100% devoid of realism for gameplay/AI sake (troops flying over blockaded straights or rebel’s teleporting just to name a few) let’s make sure that regarding "estates" whack-a-mole is a thing.
 
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Yes for a game that is almost 100% devoid of realism for gameplay/AI sake (troops flying over blockaded straights or rebel’s teleporting just to name a few) let’s make sure that regarding "estates" whack-a-mole is a thing.
we have some abstractions and game play based design choices, so all arguments for realism are out the window? Why even play a game like this if you complain when they attempt to be historically accurate?
 
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Captain Frye

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People complain about not being able to do anything during peace. Now they got it and complain it's too much micro. I personally like the extra micro work, because it's not like there is much to do between truces anyway, and I think with this dlc paradox has made their first step in to a more complex internal politics game and I hope it wont be the last.
 
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