Estates and newly conquered territory

[Simmstur]

I was playing my first game with The Cossacks last night as Burgundy. I had what I thought was a good balance on my Clergy and Noble estates - 65ish loyalty and 65ish influence. Then I won a war with France and took some nice high development provinces from them.

AI France had assigned most of those provinces to the Clergy, and when the provinces transferred to me, those provinces retained their Clergy control. This had the unfortunate effect of pushing my Clergy influence to 80%, which is obviously very bad. I had to claw back some territory from them, so now they have 69 influence but only 26% loyalty.

Is this working as intended, or have I missed something important? Personally, my cursory evaluation is that this is somewhat nonsensical. Why would the nobles of one country continue to retain control of territory after it has been conquered by another nation, for example?

This also adds another layer of (annoying) complexity to evaluating which provinces to conquer - in addition to development, trade goods, strategic value, buildings, culture, religion, and AE impact, you now also now have to consider if it will upset the balance of your estates.

But maybe there's a gameplay balance or historical reason for this I've overlooked?

 

[chochko12]

No just there are some things that no one considered when allowing estates to be kept when capturing new territories.

 

[Esben_DRK]

Nobles behaving like that seem like the way it should be, though? When Spain inherited Aragon or when England took over Ireland, they both spent huge amounts of effort to control or change the local landholding elites. I'm sure the same is with PLC or Habsburgs in the Lowlands. For Clergy, it's probably unwise to take away a Catholic monasterys lands and privileges just because they were handed out by another country that was since defeated. You can do it, but not simply by right of conquest.
Between religions this would make less sense.

 

[chochko12]

Nobles behaving like that seem like the way it should be, though? When Spain inherited Aragon or when England took over Ireland, they both spent huge amounts of effort to control or change the local landholding elites. I'm sure the same is with PLC or Habsburgs in the Lowlands. For Clergy, it's probably unwise to take away a Catholic monasterys lands and privileges just because they were handed out by another country that was since defeated. You can do it, but not simply by right of conquest.
Between religions this would make less sense.

It is sensible but this is fantasy game - gaining territory is common and with this little thing with the estates unintentional overfeeding game becomes quite hard to be micromanaged. What will happen if OPM gets 2 provinces with same estate - insta broken game?

 

[TyrannisUmbra]

Nobles behaving like that seem like the way it should be, though? When Spain inherited Aragon or when England took over Ireland, they both spent huge amounts of effort to control or change the local landholding elites. I'm sure the same is with PLC or Habsburgs in the Lowlands. For Clergy, it's probably unwise to take away a Catholic monasterys lands and privileges just because they were handed out by another country that was since defeated. You can do it, but not simply by right of conquest.
Between religions this would make less sense.

There was a response to another thread about this issue by a Paradox employee. This is basically the reason given. They also mentioned that religious estates given by religions other than your own are removed on conquest.

 

[Johan]

There was a response to another thread about this issue by a Paradox employee. This is basically the reason given. They also mentioned that religious estates given by religions other than your own are removed on conquest.

This.

If its the same religion, its given to the same priest/bishops/whatever.

 

[ParmenionGiant]

Historically, governments were heavily decentralised in the 15th century so when you conquer a province you're not getting full control of it but you gain overlordship over the people and factions present there.

It then makes sense that provinces conquered keep their allocated factions. In your case, you can decide to leave the clergy in control of the provinces you took which makes them more influential in your country or you can revoke some lands which would, understandably, anger them and reduce their loyalty.

 

[LordDamien]

This.

If its the same religion, its given to the same priest/bishops/whatever.

What if i wanted to give that new acquired land to another Estate besides the one that the country i took it from gave it too ?

For example if I take over a province and its Clergy.. What if i do not want to give that land to the Clergy but instead to the Nobles ?. But since it auto gave it to the clergy.. i lost the ability to give it to someone else without making them mad ?

 

[PhroX]

What if i wanted to give that new acquired land to another Estate besides the one that the country i took it from gave it too ?

For example if I take over a province and its Clergy.. What if i do not want to give that land to the Clergy but instead to the Nobles ?. But since it auto gave it to the clergy.. i lost the ability to give it to someone else without making them mad ?

It didn't "auto give" it to the clergy. The clergy already controlled it. Of course they're going to be mad if you try to take it from them.

 

[ParmenionGiant]

What if i wanted to give that new acquired land to another Estate besides the one that the country i took it from gave it too ?

For example if I take over a province and its Clergy.. What if i do not want to give that land to the Clergy but instead to the Nobles ?. But since it auto gave it to the clergy.. i lost the ability to give it to someone else without making them mad ?

The thing is, you don't get to give it to anyone else because they were in charge of it before you arrived. If you invade their lands and decide that you're going to transfer their property to the nobles then I guess it is understandable that they will get angry and that their loyalty will be reduced.

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

What if i wanted to give that new acquired land to another Estate besides the one that the country i took it from gave it too ?

For example if I take over a province and its Clergy.. What if i do not want to give that land to the Clergy but instead to the Nobles ?. But since it auto gave it to the clergy.. i lost the ability to give it to someone else without making them mad ?

Keep in mind that the Catholic Church, which is what we'd be talking about in this particular situation, is not bound to one nation - if the monks are in control in a province, they will still be in control even if the ownership of the province switches to Burgundy or whatever. So it's not giving the provinces to the clergy, they're just keeping what's already theirs - and if you want to take it from them, you have to be ready for their reaction.

 

[Simmstur]

So basically, be extra super duper careful when taking lands as a medium sized nation in case you completely upend your carefully balanced estates, and be prepared to live with penalties if you aren't. Not thrilled, but I'll get used to it.

 

[londoner247]

This.

If its the same religion, its given to the same priest/bishops/whatever.

I can see that logic with religious estates but it isn't so clear why that should be the case with the nobility or the merchants. My own merchants would not be happy with me leaving things under the control of foreign merchants and there's no reason why they would expect to automatically get control of the provinces that the foreign merchants had controlled.

With the nobility, the current implementation can push you towards a disaster but that is a bit hit and miss and so doesn't really reflect the idea of trying to replace local nobles with imported nobles.

 

[spinoza013]

This is why I think estates should be represented by % of autonomy within a province not a whole province. That way you can grant and reclaim lands ( % autonomy within a region) where you see fit.

 

[zamieo]

Nobles behaving like that seem like the way it should be, though? When Spain inherited Aragon or when England took over Ireland, they both spent huge amounts of effort to control or change the local landholding elites. I'm sure the same is with PLC or Habsburgs in the Lowlands. For Clergy, it's probably unwise to take away a Catholic monasterys lands and privileges just because they were handed out by another country that was since defeated. You can do it, but not simply by right of conquest.
Between religions this would make less sense.

Castile and Aragon had different estates (Cortes), though, who had extensive powers (until Charles V crushed the Castilian Cortes when they revolted at least, although the Aragonese cortes were still powerful). The Aragonese bishops didn't join the Castilian bishops, they were separate. Actually, the Castilian cortes would probably be happy if you remove an Aragonese bishopry and replace it with a Castilian one - that would give them more power and not make them less loyal, although the current system is abstracted to the point where it's just the way it works.

 

[Esben_DRK]

Castile and Aragon had different estates (Cortes), though, who had extensive powers (until Charles V crushed the Castilian Cortes when they revolted at least, although the Aragonese cortes were still powerful). The Aragonese bishops didn't join the Castilian bishops, they were separate. Actually, the Castilian cortes would probably be happy if you remove an Aragonese bishopry and replace it with a Castilian one - that would give them more power and not make them less loyal, although the current system is abstracted to the point where it's just the way it works.

You're right, it could be improved by having e.g. the Hungarian Estates inside the Habsburg Empire, and the Aragonian Estates inside Spain. Then, by taking power away from an Aragonese noble or bishop, you anger the Aragonese Estates, but you could potentially give it to a Castilian one to improve the Castilian Estates' loyalty.
This would both limit expansion, and it would make nationalist/patriot revolts make better sense (A Hungarian revolt would be centered among e.g. the Estates of the Hungarian nobility and clergy, and be lesser where the Austrian Estates have been given power). It would also diminish any wonkiness as is pointed out in this thread.

 

[Korashy]

I feel like Cossacks will be the most heavily "turned off" dlc out there if this doesn't get fixed or changed. If I conquer clay, I want to decide what to do with it instead of having to spend 40 minutes in the peace window trying to do math. Screw the clergy they can conquer their own clay.

 

[Kapitalisti]

I feel like Cossacks will be the most heavily "turned off" dlc out there if this doesn't get fixed or changed. If I conquer clay, I want to decide what to do with it instead of having to spend 40 minutes in the peace window trying to do math. Screw the clergy they can conquer their own clay.

Then just revoke your new clay from those clerics. Sure, their colleagues will be pissed off but you'll get that virgin land.

 

[Shkur]

There is no balance in the estate systemIn my byz game the best thing i can do is to have 30ish loyalty and 60-70 influence.The nobles are the worst no matter what do i can't make them loyal and not having a lot of influence.In the end i just revoked all the noble estate and ended up with permanent negative recovery speed and land maintenance modifier.It would have been better if there was no negative effects for people who don't want to be bother with that tosh.And Johan please tell wiz that he didn't succeedet to make byz unplayable it is only a lot more annoying with all the turks being France and Austria put together on steroids.Beating me with 20 army and 400 development,Austria with the whole Burgundian inheritance,Commonwealth and Hungary.

 

[Korashy]

Then just revoke your new clay from those clerics. Sure, their colleagues will be pissed off but you'll get that virgin land.

I'll just play merchant republics for now.