Estates and Development of Provinces

[IrishGirl]

I was watching a YouTube Let's Play on the way to work today and the author said that he was assigning provinces to the Burgher class for development. I feel I've heard players say similar things before. Does this actually work?

This is my understanding: A player has three estates: Nobility (of some kind), Burghers (or Merchants of some kind), and Clergy (or something similar). The loyalty of each of these three classes influences what kind of benefits the player receives. Trade efficiency +10%, National Tax Modifier +15%, whatever. The higher the loyalty, the better the benefit.

But these are "global" effects for the entire nation, correct? How does assigning a province that needs to be converted to the clergy or a province that is a center of trade, an estuary, or a highly developed province to the Burghers, benefit that specific province? If the above modifier is nationwide, it shouldn't matter where you put the estate, as long as they have enough land to keep them smiling.

So will the Burghers develop a province? Will the Clergy convert a province? Why is it important to assign these particular provinces to these specific estates?

Thanks for any help.

 

[grommile]

Each estate provides provincial modifiers in provinces they control, as well as national modifiers for the whole country.

For example, the Clergy give -2 Unrest in provinces they control as long as their loyalty is 40% or greater, and if their loyalty is 60% or greater, they also give +2% missionary strength in provinces they control.

Also, estates have two parameters affecting their national modifiers: Loyalty, and Influence.

Influence controls the size of the modifiers; Loyalty determines which modifiers you get.

 

[rinehime]

So will the Burghers develop a province? Will the Clergy convert a province? Why is it important to assign these particular provinces to these specific estates?

To expand on grommile's post (and actually answer your question ):
NO, the Burghers do not develop a province. Nor do they give a local (province-level) bonus to developing. As you mentioned above, that bonus is national for loyalty >60.

Also, NO, clergy will not convert a province. But, as noted in grommile's post, they can help with +2% missionary strength if loyalty is above 60.

Why is it important to assign these particular provinces to these specific estates?

The YouTuber might have meant to imply that it was because of the "production" development of that province. Generally, when dealing out estates, you want to give them high autonomy land with more development concentrated in the corresponding category that the estate cancels out. For example, Clergy reduces the autonomy penalty for Tax and Nobility for manpower/force limit.

Burghers are somewhat special in that, in addition to reducing autonomy for production efficiency (and sailiors/naval FL, but who cares ), they also reduce autonomy for Trade power, which is dependent on total development (not just production) as well as special modifiers like Centers of Trade (CoTs). So, in addition to high production provinces, it's useful to give them CoTs and higher total development overall as well as high production land.

As to how much land you give them, you need to balance that out to keep them loyal, so you can milk all 150 MP from them every 20 years. If you have lots of high-autonomy states, you can feed them more land, otherwise you generally want to stay near the minimum requirements.

 

[Ironside121]

There is a Burgher related event that gives the provinces 2 development sometimes- it could be referring to that.

 

[Valvinar]

They used to provide a provincial benefit but it seems like they no longer do. IE you wanted nobility to have your forts for extra defense, burgers to have trade places for extra trade, etc.

 

[Seelensturm]

I was watching a YouTube Let's Play on the way to work today and the author said that he was assigning provinces to the Burgher class for development..

Assigning provinces to the Burghers increases their loyality and influence. Loyal burghers, especially when powerful, give a country wide cost reduction for development.

 

[Ironside121]

They used to provide a provincial benefit but it seems like they no longer do. IE you wanted nobility to have your forts for extra defense, burgers to have trade places for extra trade, etc.

They still do. Burghers provide 50% trade power- and then 10% goods produced if they have more than 60 loyalty.

Clergy provide -2 Unrest, then +2% missionary strength at 60 loyalty.

Nobility provide 20% local manpower, and then 15% fort defence at 60 loyalty.

 

[IrishGirl]

Thank you, everyone, for your posts and help. I was finally able to access the Wiki on the train and thanks to that and your comments, now have what I hope is a better understanding.

There is one thing I'm not clear on though: There is grid correlation between Loyalty on the one hand and Influence on the other (as @grommile suggested). So the benefit your overall nation gets (or the penalty) is based upon that correlation. 60-100 loyalty with 40-59 influence produces different results than if that influence was 60 to 100. Okay, I got that.

But the province benefit seems to correlate solely to the Estate's loyalty. There is no "different" benefit (increased or otherwise) for more or less influence. And this makes sense when I consider the role land plays in raising and lower influence.

So I just want to check: is that correct? That influence has no effect on the strength of province modifiers?

 

[Hootieleece]

Estate Influence is bad if it goes 80 or higher it starts counting to a disaster .

Influence is gained by giving them provinces, using the estates abilities, and random events.

That said it is pretty easy to keep estate loyalty high (60+) and influence below 80.

 

[Cookiepie]

Thank you, everyone, for your posts and help. I was finally able to access the Wiki on the train and thanks to that and your comments, now have what I hope is a better understanding.

There is one thing I'm not clear on though: There is grid correlation between Loyalty on the one hand and Influence on the other (as @grommile suggested). So the benefit your overall nation gets (or the penalty) is based upon that correlation. 60-100 loyalty with 40-59 influence produces different results than if that influence was 60 to 100. Okay, I got that.

But the province benefit seems to correlate solely to the Estate's loyalty. There is no "different" benefit (increased or otherwise) for more or less influence. And this makes sense when I consider the role land plays in raising and lower influence.

So I just want to check: is that correct? That influence has no effect on the strength of province modifiers?

This is accurate.

 

[rinehime]

So I just want to check: is that correct? That influence has no effect on the strength of province modifiers?

Correct. Loyalty affects the province bonus (or a malus [increased unrest] in the case of disloyal estate). Influence does not affect the province bonus.

 

[Palatinus Germanicus]

Influence effects the modifiers visible in the estates menu screen (25/50/75/100) --( F9 or whatever it is, I use the mouse), not the provincial modifiers.

The YouTuber was probably just trying to get the loyalty up, so that he could get to 60 loyalty... that, along w/ 60+ influence, for max benefit.

As mentioned, there is a random event where you can either fight rebels (no), or increase the base tax in almost every province owned by the burghers (yes).

Don't forget to use state edicts, and try to focus most development on favorable land (costs less), like farms & grassland. Generally you'll go through 'building phases' from time to time... when burgher loyalty is 60+. That's when you'll used the edicts for 1 year, and use as many monarch pts for development as you can spare. I tend to estimate (even calculate) how much MP I'm going to need, for the next tech(s)... and use all the rest at the current time for development. -Then extort the burghers for cash, ships, and/or MPs.

In you're not aware, most of this is done (i.e. it's an important strategy) in the capital (cheap to dev. in the capital), in order to spawn an institution. If you're in India for example, and it's 1452... you can spawn the Renaissance without difficulty using all the right modifiers. Then it spreads (again, use edicts), and then you never pay much penalty when getting techs. You can actually be a 'tech beast from the east', even when playing as Mongolia or anyone else, using these tactics. -Not that your units are going to be as good as the Western, though. But hey, at least you'll have guns. And conquering your whole region will be easy... thus you'll have a big economy... so you make up for the inferior units, by sheer volume.

 

[Lor360]

There is a Burgher related event that gives the provinces 2 development sometimes- it could be referring to that.

That event gives a province to them and develops it by 2. You dont need any burghers controling land for it to fire.

 

[Richard Karlsson]

I summarized the info on the wiki page for a friend some time ago. What I tried to do was to very briefly summarize how to manage the estates. It doesn't cover 100% of all modifiers etc, but might be a good introduction to the topic.

I attach the document to this post in case anyone is interested.

 

[oros]

That event gives a province to them and develops it by 2. You dont need any burghers controling land for it to fire.

There is also this event :
https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Estates_events#Cottage_Industry

 

[SolSys]

I attach the document to this post in case anyone is interested.

Nice.
Looks different in PDF form -- almost like an old-school manual.

Edit: Would have been nice to also credit the wiki

 

[Ironside121]

That event gives a province to them and develops it by 2. You dont need any burghers controling land for it to fire.

Ah, my apologies. Instead there's actually two events that give one development each. One was listed above actually.

 

[Richard Karlsson]

Edit: Would have been nice to also credit the wiki

Yes you're right, of course I should have done that. The reason I didn't is that it was only supposed to be read by one friend of mine, I never planned to upload it anywhere until I read the discussion about the estates yesterday.

 

[IrishGirl]

Influence effects the modifiers visible in the estates menu screen (25/50/75/100) --( F9 or whatever it is, I use the mouse), not the provincial modifiers.

The YouTuber was probably just trying to get the loyalty up, so that he could get to 60 loyalty... that, along w/ 60+ influence, for max benefit.

As mentioned, there is a random event where you can either fight rebels (no), or increase the base tax in almost every province owned by the burghers (yes).

Don't forget to use state edicts, and try to focus most development on favorable land (costs less), like farms & grassland. Generally you'll go through 'building phases' from time to time... when burgher loyalty is 60+. That's when you'll used the edicts for 1 year, and use as many monarch pts for development as you can spare. I tend to estimate (even calculate) how much MP I'm going to need, for the next tech(s)... and use all the rest at the current time for development. -Then extort the burghers for cash, ships, and/or MPs.

In you're not aware, most of this is done (i.e. it's an important strategy) in the capital (cheap to dev. in the capital), in order to spawn an institution. If you're in India for example, and it's 1452... you can spawn the Renaissance without difficulty using all the right modifiers. Then it spreads (again, use edicts), and then you never pay much penalty when getting techs. You can actually be a 'tech beast from the east', even when playing as Mongolia or anyone else, using these tactics. -Not that your units are going to be as good as the Western, though. But hey, at least you'll have guns. And conquering your whole region will be easy... thus you'll have a big economy... so you make up for the inferior units, by sheer volume.

That was a very helpful post. Thanks!