Espionage was a wasted opportunity

[Harkinian's Dinner]

TBH I think most players tech rush too much for Steal Technology to be worth thinking about. Why would you steal primitive rocks and string?

See this is exactly what I mean - you don't know what Steal Technology actually does, and you think it just means stealing a tech the other empire has. I'm pretty sure that applies to most people who complain about espionage.

I wasn't being metaphorical about the operation being a research speed bonus - when done with the right Asset, it literally applies a 10% Research Speed bonus to your own research for a few years. And you can keep doing it.

 

[grommile]

See this is exactly what I mean - you don't know what Steal Technology actually does, and you think it just means stealing a tech the other empire has. I'm pretty sure that applies to most people who complain about espionage.

That is the natural expectation of the task with that name.

Like, in every other game I can think of where "Steal Technology" is a button you can press, it (if successful) gives you one of the target's technologies.

If that's not what it does, then it should have a different name.

 

[The Bored Chairman]

Hopefully we see more expanded Espionage with the Internal Politics rework.

It would be great if Pacifists could use Espionage to change the galactic landscape by use of propaganda and news manipulation (essentially giving an attraction bonus to certain factions), it would make them much more viable in the current state of the game, opening up more Federation options and conquering the galaxy with song and dance, basically.

Authoritarians and Xenophobes already have Censorship and Fear Propaganda to boost their ethics attractiveness, it would be easy to implement these into an internal Espionage mechanic to counter meddling empires.

 

[Harkinian's Dinner]

That is the natural expectation of the task with that name.

Like, in every other game I can think of where "Steal Technology" is a button you can press, it (if successful) gives you one of the target's technologies.

If that's not what it does, then it should have a different name.

The design philosophy with the espionage system seems to be the same as for Stellaris in general - "explore it for yourself and uncover its mysteries, we sure ain't telling".

Personally I LOVE this philosophy and it's one of the core appeals of the game to me. But maybe some kind of compromise should be found - some text in the espionage UI saying that you may receive major rewards if you use the right Asset for the job. Hell, the UI doesn't even show the second category of each operation unless you hover over it, so most players probably won't even realize what Asset you should use for each operation.

 

[TheRevanchist25]

I've posted a suggestion some time ago to address this very problem.
Basically it boils down to the fact that current espionage target has no way to actively interrupt the operation so it cannot be too impactful and the outcome should not require immediate attention.
The simple solution is to allow some kind of internal investigation operation so the target can be warned about potential internal threats and they can actually do something to either stop it altogether or try to prepare for it. It does not necessarily need to reveal the empire sending the spy, but the main focus is to allow for counter plays, so higher stake operations can become possible without the feel of powerless and unfairness.

So in other words...Counterintelligence, the 50% of Espionage that Paradox just literally forgot existed, except for HoI4 somehow?

 

[Harkinian's Dinner]

So in other words...Counterintelligence, the 50% of Espionage that Paradox just literally forgot existed, except for HoI4 somehow?

Counterintelligence was actually in dev diaries for the espionage system in Stellaris. The devs scrapped it at the last minute because it was deemed to complex, and replaced it with the simple encryption/codebreaking system. A mistake in my opinion - the version seen in the dev diary screenshots was much more interesting and involved.

 

[A2ch0n]

Counterintelligence was actually in dev diaries for the espionage system in Stellaris. The devs scrapped it at the last minute because it was deemed to complex, and replaced it with the simple encryption/codebreaking system. A mistake in my opinion - the version seen in the dev diary screenshots was much more interesting and involved.

A universal effective counterintelligence system would be the end of espionage i think. Everyone that dislikes espionage will stack maximum defensive options and from this point he will be effectively immune to it. That would force those of us that like espionage to abandon it against that empire and go for regular warfare (or what ever you want). That is exactly the opposite about what espionage is meant for. It's about controling the enemy/ forcing your way to play and not via versa.

The only option a effective counter intelligence sytem could work is to give the best options only if you are focused on espionage yourself. So you lower your military capabilities for getting defense. A spy against a spy is fitting, you know the tricks if you use them yourself. But giving immunity to warmongers is the last thing that should happen. So maybe lock many of the defensive abilities behind the Subterfuge tradition and (what i want for years) a espionage ascension perk, optimizing your options. That will block of course the slot for other options and thats the plan with it.

So, i'm ok with counter espionage. But only if your espionage focused yourself. If not you can mitigate some effects but not everything. The codebreaking and Encryption mechanic is good for defining those options but the best advantages should only be availlable for Subterfuge etc.

 

[Sutopia]

A universal effective counterintelligence system would be the end of espionage i think. Everyone that dislikes espionage will stack maximum defensive options and from this point he will be effectively immune to it. That would force those of us that like espionage to abadon it against that empire and go for regular warfare (or what ever you want). That is exactly the oposite about what espionage is meant for. It's about controling the enemy/ forcing your way to play and not via versa.

The only option a effective counter intelligence sytem could work is to give the best options only if you are focused on espionage yourself. So you lower your military capabilities for getting defense. A spy against a spy is fitting, you know the tricks if you use them yourself. But giving immunity to warmongers is the last thing that should happen. So maybe lock many of the defensive abilities behind the Subterfuge tradition and (what i want for years) a espionage ascension perk, optimizing your options. That will block of course the slot for other options and thats the plan with it.

So, i'm ok with counter espionage. But only if your espionage focused yourself. If not you can mitigate some effects but not everything. The codebreaking and Encryption mechanic is good for defining those options but the best advantages should only be availlable for Subterfuge etc.

That’s a very bold assumption that counter intelligence being 100% effective for non-espionage focused empires. Your suggestion is as good as forcing everyone to pick subterfuge tree because there is no other way to fight against it.

It can be a simple implementation that both sides roll dices throughout the process, since it utilized the relic dig site mechanics, and let empires focusing on the said ability having higher odd of winning but not definite. To make subterfuge more powerful it can be as simple as postponing the notification of ongoing espionage attempt so they have much less time to react and significantly less chance to stop the operation.

 

[GloatingSwine]

See this is exactly what I mean - you don't know what Steal Technology actually does, and you think it just means stealing a tech the other empire has. I'm pretty sure that applies to most people who complain about espionage.

I wasn't being metaphorical about the operation being a research speed bonus - when done with the right Asset, it literally applies a 10% Research Speed bonus to your own research for a few years. And you can keep doing it.

Ah, I thought it was like an involuntary research agreement and it would only apply that to techs they owned but you didn't.

 

[BrokenSky]

I mean the important thing about implementing a decent espionage system (including counter intelligence) is making it an active system that people engage with.

I always find it annoying when people use the "it's not fun to be on the receiving end of" argument for keeping espionage weak, for the same reason it would be dumb to apply it to warfare - if being on the receiving end is annoying because it's essentially just penalties you can't control, then you need to let people have more control to make it more fun.

For example:
Increase the number of agents available, rather than having them be 1:1 with envoys. Envoys can be assigned to spy networks, where they can, among other things, recruit agents who act similar to HOI4 spies in that you put them in a system with a planet and they start to build local spy networks on the planet as well as relevant connected systems (e.g. within the same system, within the same trade hub, within the same sector etc.). Most espionage actions are then done in a local way and often have a side-product of creating crime for example: Academic Espionage targets an empire's research worlds in the network, giving you boosts based on the outputs of those worlds, but slightly increasing crime. With more powerful network, you get a greater effect, but the crime effect is larger too - this has the side effect of tipping off that something is happening in the system (though all espionage related crime, as well as a randomly fluctuating base amount would be lumped together to obfuscate it somewhat).

With more localized networks, it also becomes easier to build network in nearby parts of enemy empires - it is easier to run espionage on the near side of a neighboring empire than the far side, and it's easier to do it on close empires than far away ones. Megacorps would get a bit of a buff in that it would be easier where they have branch offices, with a very large local bonus for Criminal Megacorps.

Counter-espionage is done in two mechanisms - firstly at the empire level by assigning envoys to build up counter-spy networks within your own empire: this general method has some effectiveness in mitigating enemy activity but is not very effective at it and mainly serves to help you identify who is doing espionage against you - you then assign empire-specific counter-efforts which are more effective in stopping that particular enemy.

By turning the whole system into something more active, dynamic and space-localized (rather than a single screen at the empire level), it becomes more of an alternative to war in terms of both the level of counterplay and hence the amount of teeth you can give it.

 

[grommile]

By turning the whole system into something more active, dynamic and space-localized (rather than a single screen at the empire level), it becomes more of an alternative to war in terms of both the level of counterplay and hence the amount of teeth you can give it.

But I don't want a huge attention sink that diverts me from the core gameplay of the genre (building my empire and conquering other peoples').

 

[BrokenSky]

But I don't want a huge attention sink that diverts me from the core gameplay of the genre (building my empire and conquering other peoples').

I mean I don't feel like that is the core loop of the game? Militarist is one ethic, not the whole game.

Pacifist gameplay shouldn't be focused around war. Xenophile probably shouldn't. Megacorps' shouldn't. At the moment the only way two mega-corps can interact is via war, which is especially silly when two competing megacorps are both pacifist.


You could just as easily turn this around and suggest that the warfare system should be gutted and replaced by a highly abstracted military conflict system where you pay alloys and engage in missions which might range in scope from border raids to wars of conquest, mostly mediated by competing dice rolls. That way you wouldn't need to spend as much mental overhead engaging with the system and could instead focus on micro-managing dozens of planets and internal politics more easily.

This is obviously a silly idea - for militarists, the warfare is the game. But conversely for espionage focused empires (which the game goes out of its way to try to make a thing with the relevant civics, criminal governments and dedicated tradition trees), espionage is a major gameplay element.

Ultimately, the ethics and government systems Stellaris implements set it apart from other games in the genre by implicitly promising asymmetric gameplay through different focuses - Pacifism vs. Militarism promises that warfare is going to be a deep enough system to make the main focus of a playthrough, but also that it will be optional enough that you can build an empire which focuses explicitly on not fighting wars.

 

[grommile]

But conversely for espionage focused empires (which the game goes out of its way to try to make a thing with the relevant civics, criminal governments and dedicated tradition trees), espionage is a major gameplay element.

I think giving Stellaris a destructive-covert-operations subsystem at all was a mistake. (I'm just deeply grateful it's in a DLC, but deeply annoyed that it pollutes a DLC full of a bunch of other really neat stuff which I can't use because I refuse to pay money for a destructive-covert-operations system.)

 

[Sute]{h]

Can anyone name a real life sabotage mission that even made a dent in the victims GDP? I think the issue here is mostly scale. Big nations (and interstellar empires) have loads of infrastructure. Damaging enough of it fast enough to make a difference on a national level is a daunting task.

Even wartime sabotage missions conducted by resistance groups have a limited effect, and is mostly about tying up occupation forces to counterinsurgancy duties.

From a gameplay point of view I really wanted espionage to be a catch up mechanic allowing those who got unlucky or made a poor decision in the early game a chance to be relevant later.

 

[TheRevanchist25]

Can anyone name a real life sabotage mission that even made a dent in the victims GDP? I think the issue here is mostly scale. Big nations (and interstellar empires) have loads of infrastructure. Damaging enough of it fast enough to make a difference on a national level is a daunting task.

Even wartime sabotage missions conducted by resistance groups have a limited effect, and is mostly about tying up occupation forces to counterinsurgancy duties.

From a gameplay point of view I really wanted espionage to be a catch up mechanic allowing those who got unlucky or made a poor decision in the early game a chance to be relevant later.

in the GDP? no, but the Rosenberg's had an unquestionable effect on world history.

 

[Sute]{h]

in the GDP? no, but the Rosenberg's had an unquestionable effect on world history.

Sure. But that wasn't sabotage it was espionage in the form of stealing tech.

 

[Meneye]

Can anyone name a real life sabotage mission that even made a dent in the victims GDP? I think the issue here is mostly scale. Big nations (and interstellar empires) have loads of infrastructure. Damaging enough of it fast enough to make a difference on a national level is a daunting task.

Even wartime sabotage missions conducted by resistance groups have a limited effect, and is mostly about tying up occupation forces to counterinsurgancy duties.

From a gameplay point of view I really wanted espionage to be a catch up mechanic allowing those who got unlucky or made a poor decision in the early game a chance to be relevant later.

It is pretty difficult to blow up an economy, apparently.

I don't really like the idea of espionage being a catch up mechanic. I'd rather it be more of something that characterizes an empire. I want to know absolutely nothing about an espionage focused empire that I'm playing against, and fighting against them should have its own unique challenges that don't relate to raw strength.

 

[Imp0815]

I also think that espionage is a bit underwhelming, but in a good spot to be improved upon. It should get stronger, more impact full operations but the big ones should behave like a fight or combat. The basic operation window could be used for that.
How it could go down:
A Empire sets an Agent on a Mission to Blowup a Starbase or incite a Riot on a Planet(Stability hit).
It takes 12 Months to finish it with some milestones like Excavations.
While this time runs out there is always a chance to be discovered based on decryption/encryption.
This chance increases while the Operation nears completion and it can be never 0% chance.
Some Operations always get discovered, the really strong ones(Flip a System? Sabotage a Fleet? Spark a War? Break up Federation?).
When a Operation is Discovered by the target empire - you never see who is doing what exactly in the beginning, you can assign an Agent of your own as Counter intelligence.
Both side then proceed to invest resources into the operation: Unity, Influence, Alloy, Energy based on the Operation type and target and Operation Milestone.
The Operation then gets prolonged until one side gives up or wins by having a better agent, more resources invested and decryption/encryption levels.
If the Counter intelligence wins there is a chance based on agent skill and decryption/encryption that they find out who was behind the operation. If the Attacking empire withdraws the chance is really low to be discovered, could be 0% for specialized empires.

Such a system would give players choices to just ignore an operation if they can take a stability hit on the target planet or maybe loose the station for some time. And the Attacking player would have a much more powerful espionage tool at his hands plus it would tie in with the main gameplay loop of the empire building and resources management.