Espionage was a wasted opportunity

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SeraphAscending

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The ideas I gave – stealing fallen empire technology, stealing a relic, or snatching a handful (3-5) of branch offices, both of which the target empire woukdbe informed about, would be hardly game-ruining.

Also, relic theft, I imagine, would be the one circumstance where reclaiming the stolen relic could be made into a casus belli for the targeted empire, for up to 10 years. After that, you would have to use espionage yourself to steal the relic back.

Eladrin commented on the relic stealing specifically (including the CB), because the devs want to avoid giving more snowball power to already powerful empires.

Also, it is not about being informed, it is about being able to make any decisions and not just be notified "well, shit's gone now. tough luck.".
Taking away agency and options is very unfun for a lot of players.
 
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fourteenfour

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Face it, Stellaris is full of half or poorly implemented features. My favorite comment to people when asked to describe the game is, "its a game of many great concepts not all of which are implemented well"

Espionage was done better by Master of Orion series and those games are twenty plus years old. What we have in Stellaris really comes across as they ran out of time.... which is far better than accepting this was their original intent. I am really worried this is exactly what they intended to deliver.

However this all comes back to our piss poor diplomacy. Seriously the diplomacy in this game is just horrid. So little you can do and some of the existing choices are automatic refusal by the AI regardless how they feel about your empire. Plus diplomacy obeys no borders and has no distance restrictions.

IMO - espionage could better be served by using real leaders who have their own traits if we wanted to have the simplest change to bring some life to it. A more advanced change would be to treat agents as troops with leaders, again with traits, leading them against a single empire or colony. You would recruit agents through a dedicated spy facility or boost their skill similar to military academy and then assign them in groups towards a colony or empire depending on the mission. Colony missions would be local sabotage and against empire for tech intel theft, taking out leaders, and more.
 
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Lorenerd11

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Eladrin commented on the relic stealing specifically (including the CB), because the devs want to avoid giving more snowball power to already powerful empires.
He commented specifically on the CB to take a relic from another empire in the first place. Making it require an espionage operation instead would be precisely an option for empires that aren't necessarily so powerful otherwise.
 

A2ch0n

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He commented specifically on the CB to take a relic from another empire in the first place, making it require an espionage operation instead would be precisely an option for empires that aren't necessarily so powerful otherwise.
I asked for that operation in the DD thread and didn't got an answer :(
 
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grommile

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But i for myself absolutely want an impactfull espionage system that allow me to puppetier other empires while smile into their face.
Mods are probably your friend (with the caveat that I've never looked at what mods can do in terms of improving the sabotage side of the covops system).

Like, this is a topic where the viewpoints are irreconcilable. Paradox (or anyone else, really) cannot write a sabotage system that both satisfies you and satisfies me.
 
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Xenith_Shadow

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I asked for that operation in the DD thread and didn't got an answer :(
WIthout the ability to take the relic back during a war that would just be annoying.
Like random empire steals your relic, you wipe empire from existence 70% chance relice just disappears for ever.

But i do think that stealing relics, well attempting to would be intresting, it would require the ability to get them back during wars, particuarly if the stealing empire is wiped out, or at least the relic move to another empire in the galaxy.
 
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A2ch0n

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Mods are probably your friend (with the caveat that I've never looked at what mods can do in terms of improving the sabotage side of the covops system).

Like, this is a topic where the viewpoints are irreconcilable. Paradox (or anyone else, really) cannot write a sabotage system that both satisfies you and satisfies me.
Yes, i have some for this and even made two for this on my own. But it's about baseline power thats missing :)
 

A2ch0n

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WIthout the ability to take the relic back during a war that would just be annoying.
Like random empire steals your relic, you wipe empire from existence 70% chance relice just disappears for ever.

But i do think that stealing relics, well attempting to would be intresting, it would require the ability to get them back during wars, particuarly if the stealing empire is wiped out, or at least the relic move to another empire in the galaxy.
I partial agree. War is actually the most powerfull mechanic in the game. If stealing relics is only a thing for espionage than it's fine i think. But i agree that a relic should pass somewhere else if the empire that owns it is destroyed. In an optimal case the target empire will never know that you have the relic now. It's neccessary to remove relics from the victory screen entirely. And especially remove the points for them. It's too much rng anyways.
 
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Xenith_Shadow

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Of the current operation's i'll list if i think there effect seem "fine" Intel should probbly also let you veiw what techs the empirehas researched.
|Gather intel is fine it's purpose is to increase intel to do more complex operation and it fill that role.
Spark diplo incedent while not particuarly powerful can theoretically turn a vote in you favour by dropping their diplo weight by 10%, the effectiveness of this operation get's weaker v.s empires with alot of envoys but that makes sense, if you have a robust diplomatic empire they could feasibly sweep a diplomatic incedent under the rug.

Acquire assest & prepare sleeper cell's both have purposes and likely work fine.
Extort favours is fine it's gets you extra political weight, it's effectiveness is alot lower v.s ai since you can buy favours off them. Presumably it's intended that that the target empire know who did this operation against them since you would have to interact with the empire the extort the favours.
Extort favours could be expand upon by having the operation split into accquire senstive information, which would be a secret operation that would give the ability to do the exort favors operation in addition to force break trade deal, research agreement ect. Where the target is then given the option to do the require task or suffer some other penalty likely diplomatic although it could also be a penalty to stability, or happiness or production for 6 months.

Smear campaign has problems as is onyl ever going to be able to work between empire that were already teetering on the brink of hostility. Since if the negative oppions was higher enough the break up friends it would be quite annoying. My solution to change smear campaign would be that it now applies a modifier to the emipire in relation to everone else -150 oppinion and then also give them an situation where they need to conteract the smear campaign to activly reduce the negative opinion.
A more aggresive version of the smear campaign would be to be able to tag the empire for uncommited warcrime such as xenophage ect with them needing to complete a situation to remove the fake opinion modifer. The issue with this would be that -1000 xenophage would have to be insanely expensive for an opperation since it would delete all of their relations with every other emprie in the galaxy.

Steal technology is fine probably change it to gaining a flat ammout in the technology as opposed to a percentage as "generally smaller empires are going to be doing espionage so gainng a flat ammount of research towards the stolen tech is going to benift smaller more than large. Additionally maybe give the option to either target a specific tech or at least a specific science tree.

Sabotage starbase should likely actually take a starbase out of commissio with the caveat that a module should be buildable with the starbase to defend against such operations. The reasoning for this is that the ability to just switch a starbase off right before war decing someone is insanely powerful and being able to freely do it with not counter play might be to strong.

Weaken imperial authority probably needs to be alot stronger as in the current set up it's almost impossible to start a rebellion althogh this could likely be solved other ways by having everone in the galaxy not being in love with the emperor. Maybe give some more "evil" resolution for the emperor that reduce the oppion of other empires in the galaxy. Maybe have the ability to secretly undermine the imperiums authority with envoys with reduced effectiveness and the operation makes then more effective in addditon to current effects.

Target seditionist is kinda pointless since you could just kick the empire from the empirium and crush them.

Spark rebellion does what it says in the name, maybe you should be able to pretend a different empire was sparking the rebelion but thats about it.

For new operations something to reduce the loyalty of someone's vassals could be useful.

An operation that starts a war with another empire which gives and situation that can be completed to try and end the war early.

An operation that triggers the robot uprising with an empire.

An operation to start a slave rebellion within an empire.

An operation to set up a crime hub on a planet, this would synergise with criminal megacorp.

Technically there could be a force vassalise opperation but it might be a mulistep chain involving replacing the leader of the contry with one more sympathetic to being vassalised, building suport from general popilation ect.

Probably a good oppition for more brutal operation is the give the victim either a choice between to bad options, or give them a time consuming task to fix what ever problem was caused.

If there was a break mega structure operation is would likely need a massive cost and a empire wide lock out of more than 10 years, so only one emprie cant hit you with it every 10ish years. If it was less than ten years the repairing of the megastructure would need to not use a megastructure construction slot and likely also be alot cheaper than normally building the final stage, or it just takes less time to fix.
 
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Lorenerd11

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WIthout the ability to take the relic back during a war that would just be annoying.
Like random empire steals your relic, you wipe empire from existence 70% chance relice just disappears for ever.
Like I said, there should probably be a casus belli to reclaim stolen relic if you originally owned it.
 
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Xenith_Shadow

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I partial agree. War is actually the most powerfull mechanic in the game. If stealing relics is only a thing for espionage than it's fine i think. But i agree that a relic should pass somewhere else if the empire that owns it is destroyed. In an optimal case the target empire will never know that you have the relic now. It's neccessary to remove relics from the victory screen entirely. And especially remove the points for them. It's too much rng anyways.
Yeah they probably shouldnt know, they could get a situation to try and figure out who took it which takes X ammount of years and resources.

Relics certainly shouldn't count towards victory when players dont have the ability to take them from other players.
I would like if the ability to take relic was added they would also add the other 5 precussors back into single player games as since only players can do the precussor chain only one will show up in single player games.
 

Sutopia

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the fundamental problem with sabotage is that the theming doesn't want the target to know the op is starting until to late, but game design needs the target to be able to respond somehow. from what we know, situations could be a good way to bridge the gap, with relative encryption playing a key role in how much notice the defender gets. other factors could be the defender's infiltration level and how much risk the defender takes. this would mean a fair chunk of operations would fail, and sometimes the defender would figure out who the attacker was. it would also help for allies to somehow cordenate their ops rather then operate separately. in any case, sabatoge should end up as an adjunct to core systems rather then a core system in it's own right.
I've posted a suggestion some time ago to address this very problem.
Basically it boils down to the fact that current espionage target has no way to actively interrupt the operation so it cannot be too impactful and the outcome should not require immediate attention.
The simple solution is to allow some kind of internal investigation operation so the target can be warned about potential internal threats and they can actually do something to either stop it altogether or try to prepare for it. It does not necessarily need to reveal the empire sending the spy, but the main focus is to allow for counter plays, so higher stake operations can become possible without the feel of powerless and unfairness.
 
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GloatingSwine

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I think the biggest two things I want from Operations are:

The ability to remove another empire's claim from one of my systems. (I also want the ability to do this diplomatically). That could help normalise relations with a prospective partner who set up those claims before we were friends.

The ability to give another empire a claim on a third party. (This would replace smear campaign basically, as it would have the same relations souring effect but would actually be practical because you could keep doing it up to the point it sparked a conflict).
 
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I like the espionage system in its current implementation. I think most people just don't realize its power, likely because they've ignored it. The operations become drastically more powerful with the right Assets.

The Steal Technology op is basically a semi-permanent Research Speed bonus once you have the correct Asset(which you can use to farm more of the same type of Asset once you have one).

The Extort Favors op can single handedly win games when used in combination with the Crisis Declaration GC resolution. You can destroy any empire by having the entire galaxy declare total war on them - and they'll be voting for it themselves.

Crisis Beacon is also a helpful saving throw if you've been targeted by the Crisis, even if the fleet that gets diverted gets lost and doesn't make it to the target.

I'd love some more operations like stealing Relics, sure, but espionage is far from weak in its current state. Of course, the passive intel via Assets and Gather Information is also a vital aspect that might get overlooked.
 
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GloatingSwine

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TBH I think most players tech rush too much for Steal Technology to be worth thinking about. Why would you steal primitive rocks and string?

Extort Favours is theoretically good for a certain type of empire build, but it's too easy to just buy favours with trinkets especially late game strategic resources that are far more valuable than their actual utility. Spend ages doing agent actions that might not work or just give them 200 dark matter that they have no use for for max favours straight away.
 

gigabytemon

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I made about ten posts to the topic of usefullness of espionage and that it is actually far too weak. Especially the operations (beside the asset system what is great!) neet some real teeth and i made many suggestions for that. But for me it feels actually like fighting windmills.
My last suggestion was to make use of the upcoming situation system. Maybe here is a opportunity for some of the major abilities it should have like:

-Forment Unrest
-Change Ethics/Government
-Deactivate/Destroy Mega structures (destroy means the final stage that has to be rebuild)
-Break Federations
-Break Defense Pacts/Alliances and devide befriended empires
-Spark Wars

Ooh, ooh, I've got some too!

-Assassination: Kills a random leader. Requires an asset that will be destroyed, and the leader depends on what type of asset it was. For the sake of not being totally unfun, the ruler can't be targeted, unless...
-Support Separatists: Usable against Autocracies. Causes a world to lose stability for 10 or something years. Maybe increases the chances of rebellion so it's easier to fracture them.
-Rig Election: Usable against Democracies. Forces the next election to go to any leader other than the current ruler. Could even force the election to go to the leader with the lowest vote count. Annoying.
-Drug Hivemind/Logic Bomb: Usable against Gestalts. A random ruler loses a beneficial trait and gains a negative one.

Speaking of bombs...
-Dirty Bomb: Kills pops on a planet. Adds Devastation and an annoying district blocker. Boom.

Lots of stuff to take advantage of the situation system. I wonder if a mod can be made to add this stuff into the game anyway?
 
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grommile

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I would like if the ability to take relic was added they would also add the other 5 precussors back into single player games as since only players can do the precussor chain only one will show up in single player games.
I think if all precursors are going to be in every galaxy, then the event chains have to be made available to the AI so they aren't just a Win Harder button for the player.
 

Lorenerd11

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I've posted a suggestion some time ago to address this very problem.
Basically it boils down to the fact that current espionage target has no way to actively interrupt the operation so it cannot be too impactful and the outcome should not require immediate attention.
The simple solution is to allow some kind of internal investigation operation so the target can be warned about potential internal threats and they can actually do something to either stop it altogether or try to prepare for it. It does not necessarily need to reveal the empire sending the spy, but the main focus is to allow for counter plays, so higher stake operations can become possible without the feel of powerless and unfairness.
I think @Pancakelord's idea to utilize the Situation system for this, where some Espionage operations can create a Situation that the targeted empire can respond to, could help improve this.
I am curious to see how it could work with situations though. It would play more to Stellaris' event chains - It is it's one real unique point vs other 4xes.
  • Rather than an Op to kill the ruler of a country, out of the blue - for the victim - frustratingly. The operation starts an event chain - the other country learns of a plot against their leader.
  • You then have a tug-o-war,
    • with the instigator passively [based on spy network stats, if one side is a police state, has enigmatic AP etc] pushing it up to 100%(kill ruler & impose some humiliation-like debuff, escape without being discovered)
    • whilst the victim pushes it down to 0% (ruler saved, you learn who started it*, and get a reward),
    • or it times out (ruler saved, victim doesn't learn who did it, maybe a small debuff to encourage ending it sooner)
    • with some random events/choices firing (for the victim - and maybe instigator) each time the progress shifts, or every X periods.
*may carry diplomatic implications - be a sanctionable/denounceable affair.
 
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DarkSafire

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Creating good (and fun to interact with) espionage system in 4x games is notoriously difficult. If you give it too much power all the people who now clamour it to be buffed will come back and cry when they get 10+ sabotage events in month.

Passive intel gathering and use of opportunities like low stability or slave revolt for your own advantage is good enough for now untill devs are ready to give espionage system another pass.

Only way i can see sabotage and other harmful espionage actions being even remotly balanced is under these conditions:
  • We get counter-intelligence UI similar to one we get for espionage where we can track incoming suspicious activities and run operations that boost our defense
  • Spies are seperated as leaders from envoys (and preferably with traits) so we can use them for more than handful of cases (and one is needed as counter-intelligence leader for it to be 100% effective)
  • Once harmful operations enters "in progress" stage we get "We are detecting increased foreign cover activity" notification so we can start responding. Upcoming situation system is perfect for things like rebelions or slave uprisings.
  • Some kind of cooldown or lockdown mechanism to prevent spam. If somebody succeeds at hostile espionage action, victim should get "counter-intelligence is on high alert" status than blocks most hostile operations.
 
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