Espionage improvement brainstorming

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Me_

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If there is one thing that almost all EU4 players can agree on it's that France is overpowered... I mean that espionage is a useless idea set.

It often seems to me like espionage is just a wasted opportunity. There they are those 3 diplomatic actions that I've never used and will never use. But all is not lost, I think that espionage could in fact be a very interesting new dimension that could be added to the game. All it needs is a bit of effort to design.

First thing, that I believe should be done is a new type of envoy - spy. Every nation would start with 1 by default. This alone opens up new possibilities for national ideas, not to mention events and decisions with an extra spy as a bonus.
Obviously, most players would use their spy to fabricate claims, this is a war game after all. So that's why Fabricating Claims should still be done by diplomats. That way spies could be used for more creative actions.

What actions, you say, all that remains is supporting rebels. Well, here's the thing: all espionage actions should be available to everyone [well, some may have extra requirements like religion or government type, plus there could be one (at most) extra that would be espionage-specific]. It's just that without espionage you'd only have one (or very few) spy to use them with and espionage would make them more potent.

Another thing of note is that there should be both actions that could be done against other countries and actions that would be performed domestically. This would require a new tab in the government screen. Spies could be used to counter rebels, help missionaries, or in a number of other ways as a new form of internal politics.

What do you think?
 
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Pyske

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Sounds like you're looking for a total overhaul.

I like the incremental boosts they have been giving it, particularly in that many of them don't require massive investments of time and energy from the devs (i.e. improvements that don't require new systems, new UI, nor an AI rewrite). Boosts like increasing the effects of Sow Dissent, making Privateer Efficiency more valuable, making vassal relations matter more (and thus boosting Sabotage Relations), etc.

The biggest problem I see is the single-target nature of most espionage actions. Instead of making you stronger, they make one, specific enemy weaker, and generally cost some resource (Diplomat time, ducats) on top of that. The opportunity cost are ideas that would make you stronger against everyone else, not just a single foe, and usually without that resource consumption. Espionage thus starts out at a power deficit simply by the targeted nature of the abilities it gives.

One of the suggestions I made on the previous forum, which I think would be a big boost and very thematic, is to allow espionage to boost the neighbor bonus, so that the farther behind you are the more it helps you catch up, but doesn't let you get ahead. This is obviously more useful for ROTW countries... just as it should be.

Those are my thoughts. Hope it's helpful.
 
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Krajzen

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I would like to be able to find out the AI personalities of other rulers.

...you see it as icon and tooltip... since game's release... next to ruler's name...


Espionage improvement could be sophisticated but it is currently so poor its improvement could be also very damn simple.

ADD MORE ESPIONAGE ACTIONS.

Assasination of generals and advisors, obviously difficult. Not sure about rulers as that could be extremely frustrating for human.
Stronger rumormongering, some kind of diplomatic as well as economic sabotage.
One thing I would cry for is allowing spies on sabotaging sieged cities so sieges could eventually end faster
Or exact opposite, sabotaging sieging armies to slow down the siege.
Infecting water supplies for enemy military to increase attrition.
Spreading rumors in enemy armies to decrease morale.
Financial scams as way of getting money.
Stealing technological secrets -> percentage tech bonus for certain amount of time.
Sabotaging enemy currency (Prussia loved stuff like that) to periodically drastically increase enemy inflation.
Stronger rebel support.
Rumormongering on enemy lands lowering heathen/heretic tolerance (Jews kill Christian babies! Yeah, seems legit!)
Gangsta actions against foreign merchants to lower foreign trade power.
etc
 
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yerm

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I don't think we need to go apeshit overhauling it necessarily.

The biggest problem with espionage is that it ties up diplomats and has limited use. Remove those two limitations and it's probably going to get useful.

Support rebels costs money; there's no need to have it tie up a diplomat. You start support, and if discovered your support simply ends for the lockout period and then you can send your diplomat to start it back up if desired. This would allow rich nations to incite rebellion all over the place, useful as a money sink!

Fabricate claim should not give excessive AE outside of the target nation. Instead, if discovered you should be repelled and locked from fabricating a claim on them for a period - it makes the ability to just claim anyone you want more difficult, makes spy offense more valuable, and reduces some of the absurdity of coalitions over nothing.

Give some military-themed espionage options. A way to sap local siege time, or add to an enemy's war exhaustion, maybe even morale hits.

Give an option to send your spy to raise the local autonomy of a province.

With ideas,

Give ways to sow dissent such that declaring war on me would cause a WE or maybe even stab hit. Espionage should be a semi-reliable way to discourage others from attacking you.

Give a way to contest claims - perhaps using the diplomat to run a timer down on a claim from someone not in a truce, or a similar way to get rid of them somehow.

Give the actual, you know, espionage ability of hiding my shit. Close off visibility of my land and the troops on it unless you move your own nearby. Hide army composition until you're smack dab fighting it. Hide the visibility of a general in the army at all. That kind of secrecy. This should be the real core of espionage ideas!
 
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DicRoNero

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Give special abilities provided by Espionage to anyone for free, but unlocked at certain dip tech. Instead use the saved slots for things like: AE reduction for yourself (boring, but efficient); AE increase for your rivals (!!), possibly when they take lands close to you, though; the abovementioned sieging boosts - and voila, it's suddenly a decent idea group.
 
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Me_

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The biggest problem I see is the single-target nature of most espionage actions. Instead of making you stronger, they make one, specific enemy weaker, and generally cost some resource (Diplomat time, ducats) on top of that. The opportunity cost are ideas that would make you stronger against everyone else, not just a single foe, and usually without that resource consumption. Espionage thus starts out at a power deficit simply by the targeted nature of the abilities it gives.
Which is why I think that they should add options for domestic espionage, which would strengthen you rather than weaken anyone. Things like raising your legitimacy/republican tradition, bribing cardinals/the Pope for Papal influence, lowering the strength of rebel factions. I also like the idea of removing claims other nations have on you.
 
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eroskos

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So many great ideas here, and not all of them are overhauls (though adding an actual spy agent sure is).
I like ticking effects for spy bonuses/maluses, but I could see solid one time effects if we’re talking about Espionage ideas. Particularly if it becomes an idea group for mid- to late-game. So sabotage reputation might always be too powerful if it’s -50 but if it ticks up to 50 over 2 years? (basically the same way improve relations works).

1) autonomy could be affected by spies, but also DOMESTIC autonomy: spies use propaganda to reduce your own province autonomy. (as suggested by comments by Krazjan & yerm above)
2) Support rebels should be a spy action, not a diplomat action. Just feels more fitting to incite rebellion with an undercover agent, not official gov’t representative.
3) Stealing technology or stealing specific type of points -- just getting a boost in one mana type would be worth it for crap monarchs. (I realize this conflicts with National Focus function and would not advocate nerfing Nat Focus or overpowering countries with espionage “Steal Military Points" and Nat Focus Military -- but maybe there's some potential here?)
4) An unused spy could increase nation’s diplo reputation (similar to "not using a merchant to collect in a trade node” gives a bonus)
5) Reducing AE would be interesting
6) Investigate Privateers -- increase the chance of discovering who sent the privateers?

I find it hard sometimes to conceive of non-wartime activities when people ask for them in the forums, so the suggestions here are compelling to me.
 
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solidprice

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If I could only have 3 choices to buff it, it would be:

1. 10% siege speed and +1 leader siege

2. I do like the idea of having lazy diplomats giving a buff.

3. It's either diplomats wouldn't have to stay to use espionage actions or a way to boost liberty desire.
 

ikkiks

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To be honest, I don't really wish for a fix to espionage. It's the idea group with the highest chance of being a huge annoyance.

Sabotage Reputation: if this worked well, we could see allies and vassals going berserk on you. In a multiplayer game, it could be cool, but it could also be really hate inducing. In single player, I remember being target of many of these in a previous patch (1.14? 1.15? I don't remember). It was the most annoying thing ever.

Sow Discontent: same as the previous. Rebels going crazy out of nowhere.

We could see a must-have espionage, just to counter other spies if this isn't done well. But, if this comes in the format of a complete rework, including some ideas mentioned here, I would completely support it. Reducing AE, investigating privateers (could give a trade CB), stealing technology, bad events that increase autonomy, increasing liberty desire (that doesn't stack!). Those are all cool ideas.