I see espionage ideas as most promising for small countries with lots of diplomatic relations. Have you been able to alter the course of world history from behind the curtains? If so, how?
Espionage Ideas - Have you used them to great effect?
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Never taken them. It's way too easy to get caught and make other countries hate you, and they do so very little in the first place.
Just like aristocracy, it's useful. However, when one compares them to other ideas, it's just useless for me. It is far better, in my opinion, to get, for example, more morale, manpower, less prestige decay, more merchants, etc.
I think paradox made this idea to mess with players, since Ming keep sabotaging my reputation when I have no intention to invade Asia.
I would love to have some of the things you can do with espionage, but not at the cost of an idea group.
Never take it myself but absolutely hate it when some OPM completely sabotage my reputation and all the plans collapse.
Infiltrate administration is really useful...as is the diplomat. The rest is kind of junky though IMO. It's hard to justify taking it, though with hidden ledgers the finisher would be amazing.
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I have never taken the idea group. Never.
I used to like the old EUIII way to infiltrate administration and would do it often. But, like other posters write here, the costs outweigh the benefits. It is not worth an entire idea group to get that one ability.
Paradox needs to really rethink how they did the tech groups. They just don't work right now. Some are automatic "need to have it" ideas for some nations -- like Quest for the New World as, say, Portugal or England.
A few, like Espionage, tend to get relegated to the rubbish bin, or to NPCs, because no PC invests in them.
The problem with these ideas is that it is hardly ever worth it to "bet" on a revolt when you can pay for your own "certainty" of investment in your provinces or in building your army or navy. The payoff is generally low in Espionage, and, as people talk about the downside of getting caught, the risk is too high to even make the attempt.
Sad really.
I used to like the old EUIII way to infiltrate administration and would do it often. But, like other posters write here, the costs outweigh the benefits. It is not worth an entire idea group to get that one ability.
Paradox needs to really rethink how they did the tech groups. They just don't work right now. Some are automatic "need to have it" ideas for some nations -- like Quest for the New World as, say, Portugal or England.
A few, like Espionage, tend to get relegated to the rubbish bin, or to NPCs, because no PC invests in them.
The problem with these ideas is that it is hardly ever worth it to "bet" on a revolt when you can pay for your own "certainty" of investment in your provinces or in building your army or navy. The payoff is generally low in Espionage, and, as people talk about the downside of getting caught, the risk is too high to even make the attempt.
Sad really.
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I took espionage once, I would never take it again.
I was hoping I would be able to use "Sabotage Reputation" to try and break some key alliances between great powers, but in practice the effect is too small to be of much use.
I was hoping I would be able to use "Sabotage Reputation" to try and break some key alliances between great powers, but in practice the effect is too small to be of much use.
The gem in the Espionage idea group is Infiltrate Administration. If you play opportunistically as a smaller power, your ability to see into the enemy movements can give you the window of opportunity to strike at the best time.
In a Venice game, I use it to tell me the best moment to DoW on Ottos.
In a Venice game, I use it to tell me the best moment to DoW on Ottos.
They're great for messing around in multiplayer.
Infiltrate Admin is good if you only have one stack and want to carpet siege... Otherwise they're mostly a waste of an idea slot.
Infiltrate Admin is good if you only have one stack and want to carpet siege... Otherwise they're mostly a waste of an idea slot.
In SP, you don't really need it. You can tell where Ottos are as Venice for example simply by observing who they're currently fighting; they'll have all or almost all of their forces there.
Also, in most cases a quick glance at the ledger is enough. However, in MP it'd be a different story. The only problem is...what exactly would be OK to drop to slot espionage in? Innovative, religious, diplomatic/exploration/expansion/naval (really hard choices in diplomacy), multiple military. Let's just say you do the boring but great offense/defense/quality, diplomatic + or expansion or exploration (depends who you are). You're at 5. You will want naval later...and now you're down to 2 choices, one very late game and the other even more so.
I suppose you could drop innovative and if the game is really crowded, diplomatic (ability to use it to fish out AI is limited and humans don't care about diprep). Dropping inno hurts though because its benefits are amazing.
I guess if you don't need religious and you're taking a 7th group or 8th group...take it?
On a side note, it might be useful solely for the diplomat in runaway conquest games...dunno there.