Espionage Action: Underground Railroad / Kidnap and Enslave

[Kaivian]

I saw this in a reddit thread and liked the idea, so I'm suggesting it here. This adds a new espionage action depending on your ethics/policies. If you're against slavery, you get an "underground railroad" option that takes an enslaved pop out of the empire and adds it to your own (or maybe there's a chance it adds to your own, and a chance they just wander off to somewhere else?)

If you're for slavery, you get an option to kidnap a pop. When you do, they automatically become enslaved. If slavers steal from slavers, it should be a random chance to be a slave OR a free pop.

 

[G S Palmer]

I had this exact same idea, but can't remember if I posted it anywhere. If I did, maybe I'm the one who's suggestion you saw. Anyway, I agree completely.

 

[Sutopia]

This ain't EU4. Underground railway doesn't really do anything for a space game.
Besides, that's more of a criminal heritage action of pop trafficking. I would actually ask for allowing criminal heritage kidnapping pops without needing nihilist acquisition but via espionage, and criminal heritage only.

 

[G S Palmer]

This ain't EU4. Underground railway doesn't really do anything for a space game.
Besides, that's more of a criminal heritage action of pop trafficking. I would actually ask for allowing criminal heritage kidnapping pops without needing nihilist acquisition but via espionage, and criminal heritage only.

I mean, I agree that it might be fun to kidnap people as Criminal Heritage, but I don't understand why you wouldn't also want egalitarian empires to be able to turn around and try to free the slaves of the galaxy.

 

[Kaivian]

This ain't EU4. Underground railway doesn't really do anything for a space game.
Besides, that's more of a criminal heritage action of pop trafficking. I would actually ask for allowing criminal heritage kidnapping pops without needing nihilist acquisition but via espionage, and criminal heritage only.

So in other words, you like the idea, but want it restricted to fit your idea of which types of empires should be able to use it? I think stellaris tends to err on the side of flexibility over thematic, and sometimes even encroaching on the absurd.

 

[Sutopia]

So in other words, you like the idea, but want it restricted to fit your idea of which types of empires should be able to use it? I think stellaris tends to err on the side of flexibility over thematic, and sometimes even encroaching on the absurd.

In other words, you don't like my idea, and cannot find a lore fitting justification to allow egalitarian doing so. I think Stellaris tend to put more immersion in the game and is willing to give certain privileges and/or uniqueness to a certain play style so we can have more dynamic experiences. Bio-trophy is a pretty compelling unique living standard that is only created for Rogue Servitor, I don't see why population trafficking cannot be criminal heritage unique.

No, I do not get why egalitarian should be able to "free" slaves via espionage without any other cost. Ethics may shift over time so it at very least should bound to a non-removable civic. We all know pops is the butter and bread for an empire and kidnapping pop is just too strong if it comes for free or at little costs. You could've suggest adding a new civic allow doing so as a criminal heritage equivalent for normal empire but I guess you can also reply like that.

 

[Kaivian]

In other words, you don't like my idea, and cannot find a lore fitting justification to allow egalitarian doing so. I think Stellaris tend to put more immersion in the game and is willing to give certain privileges and/or uniqueness to a certain play style so we can have more dynamic experiences. Bio-trophy is a pretty compelling unique living standard that is only created for Rogue Servitor, I don't see why population trafficking cannot be criminal heritage unique.

No, I do not get why egalitarian should be able to "free" slaves via espionage without any other cost. Ethics may shift over time so it at very least should bound to a non-removable civic. We all know pops is the butter and bread for an empire and kidnapping pop is just too strong if it comes for free or at little costs. You could've suggest adding a new civic allow doing so as a criminal heritage equivalent for normal empire but I guess you can also reply like that.

It's not that I disliked it, but more it just seems unnecessarily restrictive without really adding much thematically? Even with it, I don't think either espionage or criminal heritage would be improved enough (it'd help narrow the gap, though).

I do agree that it would be nice to see criminal heritage get some more treatment to make it more unique and interesting. I was excited by the premise and even liked the idea of increasing crime and having this criminal empire that had worked its way throughout the galaxy... but it wasn't interesting at all. It just seemed like either the AI let crime take over, or they kicked me out, I didn't have control over any of that, and neither outcome was interesting to me.

Maybe they need special "crime boss" envoys. Work like regular envoys, but get extra things they can do when assigned to the galactic council, and a very different espionage menu focused on criminal activity.

 

[klopkr]

I posted this exact idea in of my other threads! I absolutely love it!

 

[MadCrow96]

This should be available to criminal heritage... As long as it has slaves lol

 

[Tamwin5]

A pop represents a lot of people. The amount is left intentionally ambiguous, but it's likely in the tens to hundreds of millions. That is far beyond what I'd consider reasonable for kidnapping to accomplish, even with some handwaving and future tech. So I'd make the option for slaves only, since you need far less manpower, coordination, and effort to move people who want to move. I don't see free people, no matter how low their happiness is, agreeing in get in the white van labeled "free candy and a better life!".

Of course, this operation wouldn't be ethic locked at all. So egalitarians can go full Underground Railroad and free slaves, while authoritarians can acquire some stock. The operation would probably need to have a timer similar to tech steal, to keep it from getting too annoying.

 

[Kaivian]

I don't see free people, no matter how low their happiness is, agreeing in get in the white van labeled "free candy and a better life!".

It's also happening over a long period of time. You see this kind of thing happen IRL, like there's all the people "trapped" in Saudi Arabia as not-technically-slaves-but-really-they're-slaves. Mostly Indian, but others, including Americans, are also reported.

 

[Tamwin5]

It's also happening over a long period of time. You see this kind of thing happen IRL, like there's all the people "trapped" in Saudi Arabia as not-technically-slaves-but-really-they're-slaves. Mostly Indian, but others, including Americans, are also reported.

That's more like people getting into a migration pact with a slaver empire. They weren't snuck into Saudia Arabia by Saudi agents, they just moved or traveled there and then couldn't leave again. And even spreading it over the 6 or so years that the espionage operation takes, it's still a ludicrous amount of people.

 

[Kaivian]

I tend to accept a lot of handwaving. I mean, you can instantly teleport an entire pop from one of your systems to another system that'd be a thousand lightyears (or more) away... Games can't perfectly simulate reality, and even less so considering future technology is only an approximation of what we think might be possible.

 

[Tamwin5]

I tend to accept a lot of handwaving. I mean, you can instantly teleport an entire pop from one of your systems to another system that'd be a thousand lightyears (or more) away... Games can't perfectly simulate reality, and even less so considering future technology is only an approximation of what we think might be possible.

That's for gameplay and performance reasons. I think limiting pop stealing to slaves actually makes more interesting gameplay, since it adds another disadvantage to slavery, and adds a real reason to consider freeing pops.