Escort Fighters as Brigade Attachement?

[Mork]

One problem with the cap is that it will hurt the strat/naval bombers far more than it does now, and it will boost the CAS/Tac a lot because CAS has shorter range than escorts and Tac has about the same.

(Oh, I do agree that it should be a cap, there is just some issues with it)

 

[baylox]

I just want to voice my agreement with the range (and speed, for that matter) cap for Escort brigades idea, rather than the current modification. That this benefits CAS (and to some extent TAC) more than it does STR I don't really see as a problem, but as a historically correct representation. This is a historical simulator after all and this would be a better simulation of how things worked than the current system.

I do, however, support the change to an escort brigade rather than a separate unit, but as others here I would've liked to keep an extra unit. Currently we have an Interceptor "division", a Multi-role one and an Escort brigade. What I would've liked to see added was an Air Superiority unit, since the multi-role fits the heavy/ground-attack aircraft pretty well (currently it's supposed to be ground attack and air superiority rolled into one, which makes for strange model assignments).

That's a side issue though, as a modder I see the range/speed modification (rather than cap) as a greater problem and one that actually prevents true representation of differences between various Escorts (the increase in Air Defense isn't enough). Currently there is no real detriment of having the first Escort model attached to the last Strategic bomber... the penalties should be higher and the only way to accomplish that is through range and speed caps.

 

[blue emu]

There is an argument for a range cap that is somewhat lower than the Escort's true range... and even for a SMALL range reduction to the Bombers (-50?), since the Escorts and Bombers would have to rendezvous and stay in formation... which consumes fuel and flight-duration.

Nothing approaching -150, though.

 

[TheLand]

There is an argument for a range cap that is somewhat lower than the Escort's true range... and even for a SMALL range reduction to the Bombers (-50?), since the Escorts and Bombers would have to rendezvous and stay in formation... which consumes fuel and flight-duration.

Nothing approaching -150, though.

I think the point is that a mixed formation has its range limited by that of the shortest-ranged units.

If a unit of intercontinental bombers is being escorted by Me-110s then the limiting factor is the Me-110s.

If those Me-110s are escorting Stukas though the addition of the Me110s doesn't increase the range of the Stukas.

So the effect of the escort should be to CAP the range of the formation.

Escort with range 1000, CAS with range 300 = range 300
Escort with range 1000, Bomber with range 3000 = range 1000.

Not as currently where the escorted CAS would have range 150 and the escorted Bomber would have range 2750.

 

[blue emu]

I'm well aware of this... my point is that in order to escort a Bomber formation, you must rendezvous with it, formate on it, and maintain formation with it... all of which consume both time and fuel.

That's why I mentioned that the Escort Brigade should be switched to a cap, but with a SMALL reduction to the bomber's range... both the Escorts AND the Bombers must waste fuel and time formating.

Re-read my post.

Escort with range 1000, CAS with range 300 = range 300
Escort with range 1000, Bomber with range 3000 = range 1000.

Escort with range 1000, CAS with range 300 = range 250
Escort with range 1000, Bomber with range 3000 = range 950.

 

[TheLand]

I'm well aware of this... my point is that in order to escort a Bomber formation, you must rendezvous with it, formate on it, and maintain formation with it... all of which consume both time and fuel.

That's why I mentioned that the Escort Brigade should be switched to a cap, but with a SMALL reduction to the bomber's range... both the Escorts AND the Bombers must waste fuel and time formating.

Re-read my post.

Yes. Sorry was replying the thread in general rather than you

 

[Der Bismarck]

I repeat, how about this solution:

1. Keep escorts as a brigade attachment, but set a max range by tech advancements

2. Make another "brigade" attachment NIGHT FIGHTING/Radar EQUIPMENT, which can be attached to ANY plane/ship to enhance its capabilities. IRL, electronics were added to existing models to provide these capabilities. The bonuses could be adjusted by future tech research.

3. Return the Escort Fighters as a producable unit, renamed LR Fighters - give then some survailence capabilities, the LR platforms were used as recon planes

 

[nbjjb]

I like your solution Der Bismarck,. although I would settle for the range cap and some sort of long range/heavy fighter. I don't know how likely it is to be implemented. Is there a precedent for hole units being added in patches?

 

[unmerged(44751)]

I've just discovered this thread, when i went to this forum because after i started my first DD GC yesterday i was dissapointed to see that there is no Escort Fighter unit anymore and i wanted to write about it.

AFAIK and my knowledge is limited to German aircrafts of WWII, twin-engine planes served in a multitude of roles in WWII, most prominent escort, nightfighter, heavy fighter and long-range-fighter. And that's what i've used them as units for in HoI2. Now i don't have any equivalent unit anymore in DD to do that.

The reason why escort fighters like the Me-110 were used as night-fighters and heavy fighters for attacking enemy bombers, were because:

1. Radar equipment was too big to be fitted on smaller planes.

2. Stonger Armament than single engine fighters

Their drawback was poorer manoeuvrability.

That's why i would agree to the propositions 'Der Bismarck' had made, with one exception:

2. Make another "brigade" attachment NIGHT FIGHTING/Radar EQUIPMENT, which can be attached to ANY plane/ship to enhance its capabilities. IRL, electronics were added to existing models to provide these capabilities. The bonuses could be adjusted by future tech research.

I wouldn't allow the brigade to be attached to Interceptors or Fighters because they weren't used as night-fighters and as i stated earlier radar equipment was too big in these days to be fitted on a single engine fighter (AFAIK from the german aircrafts).

Most of all i would like to see a heavy/long-range fighter unit back in game.

Until this happens i use TAC with Escort brigade in the role as long-range fighter/night-fighter, which isn't historically incorrect because the german JU-88 Tactical bomber was remodelled as a night-fighter, too, and it had a better performance in this role than the ME-110. And the JU-388 actually never saw any action as a Bomber in reality (contrary to the role in HoI2 and DD) but as high-altitude night-fighter and reconnaissance plane.

Anyway, the stats for TAC with ESC brigade are much poorer in a role as long-range fighters than the ESC units in HoI2.

So in my opinion i definately would like to see a unit like the ESC in HoI2 back into DD.

 

[Spricar]

In real life, Escort Fighters have a greater range than Stukas... why in the world should they reduce a Stuka's range by -60%?

Call me stupid but in my DD game as Germany I can attach ESC to TAC and NAV only. You can't attach escorts to CAS...

 

[GrimReaper]

Call me stupid but in my DD game as Germany I can attach ESC to TAC and NAV only. You can't attach escorts to CAS...

STR can have ESC as well.

 

[Spricar]

STR can have ESC as well.

OK, I forgot. In any case, CAS can't. So I assume half of the people, complaining about ESC-F being attached to CAS thus lowering their mission range don't even have a copy of DD, didn't play a single game, in short they are complaining about things they don't know.

Sad

 

[mbb]

I don't know about losing the ESC unit itself, but air combat is playing out differently in DD than in standard HOI.

I think there have been tweaks to the way damage is applied and such so I am not too sure that the air war has been broken that badly. Or because my interceptors are hurting the allied bombers to much, the changes may have gone too far. I am going to have to play DD a few more times to get a better feel for it.

As a side note, what about the doctrines? Do some of them give advantages to TACs when night fighting? ie. use TACs in DD for night patrols instead of ESC.

 

[blue emu]

OK, I forgot. In any case, CAS can't. So I assume half of the people, complaining about ESC-F being attached to CAS thus lowering their mission range don't even have a copy of DD, didn't play a single game, in short they are complaining about things they don't know.

Sad

In the BETA play-test versions of Doomsday (and perhaps in 1.0 as well), CAS could receive ESC.

 

[unmerged(55538)]

And what have we got now? Still mixed stacks (CAS + Fighters(as escorts)) and a new brigade-system for planes. Neither fish nor fowl. (exaggerating)

 

[unmerged(54763)]

My idea,i posted it allredy elswhere but maybe i will get some response here...

Every first class fighter of WW2 was made as interceptor,fighter-bomber,and escort and even night version.Is it possible to somehow mod this game in hystorical manner?

My picture of "real" situation about this matter is this:
There should be:

Air Divisions- Universal fighters( F),one and only fighter division,
and original CAS,TAC,STR,NAV,TRA.
"F" will be aproximation of standard predominant one seat fighter in serial production for each country
(like Me 109,Spitfire,Thunderbolt,Mitsubishi "zero"...)with universal capabilities similar to FIGHTER unit of vanilla game.

Air Brigades should be:
1- Interceptors-increase air defence,short range escort
2- Fighter-bombers- increase ground atack
3- long range fighters- increase range of fighter div.,and long range escort
4- haevy fighters- increase night interception and long range escort
Then one can make combinations as follows:

Fighter(F) div.can atach brigades 1,2,3 and 4
F+ interceptor=increased air defence,no aditional ground atack and radius of divizion.
F+fighter-bomber=ground atack and air defence, universal unit.
F+long range fighter= air defence unit,with some increase in radius.
F+haevy fighter=air defence,increased night interception.

CAS,can atach brigades -1,2.
CAS+interceptor= apropriate escort for them
CAS+fighter-bomber= ultimate ground support unit,plus some protection for CAS.

TAC can atach brigades-1,2,3,
TAC+ interceptors=poor man(early war!) escort,low range
TAC+ fighter-bomber=ground atack,some escort
TAC+long range fighter=true escort

STR can atach brigades 3,4.
STR+long range fighter=natural combination
STR+haevy fighter=escort,night escort!

NAV,TRA can atach 3,long range fighter.

What are you people think about this idea,is it possible to change this as some mod o even patch?

 

[egslim]

Checking the DD files shows that many still have the Esc F data. That makes me wonder wether the model has actually been removed from the .exe, or wether it is possible to reïntroduce it.

Liebgot, your suggestion requires 4 Air Brigades. I fear we're stuck with only one.

For a mod I plan to simply change Fighters and Interceptors into "Heavy Fighters" and "Light Fighters", the former with higher range and as night fighters, the latter with the best combat stats. No Turbojet Heavy Fighters.

The escort brigades can continue to be used, perhaps with some modified stats - they save on micromanagement.


The distinction between Interceptor and Fighter is merely one of high-speed guns or high powered guns, and those could be easily changed.

 

[JohnMK]

Do any mods exist that can bring back the escort fighter? I'm not willing to mod the game myself.

 

[Mattias]

Not possible to make escort-wings in DD

Checking the DD files shows that many still have the Esc F data. That makes me wonder wether the model has actually been removed from the .exe, or wether it is possible to reïntroduce it. ...

When i carried over my previous mods from HoI2 a few days ago i also tried to replace some air-wings (tac-bombers i think) with escorts (manually with notepad). The scenario loaded ok and they appeared in the game but without any stats or picture and the game crashed when i tried to move them . I also tried to remove "escorts" from the brigade-folder, then i got a error-message when loading the game.

I think - as suggested by others - the current solution is to mod the escort-brigade in order to fit it to fighters or tactical bombers to get night-fighters. I also think one should imagine them as fairly small 2 engined bombers, i.e. not as Wellingtons (wich IRL was used as a strat-bomber) but rather Blenheims or Mosquitos.

On a sidenote I'm not sure long-range "naval fighters" protecting fleets far from a coastline was very realistic anyway - how would they find the ships they should protect at the same time as the enemy torpedo-bombers appeared? IMHO this is why all those expensive carriers were built - they were the only possible solution.

Om a second sidenote I think maybe the german bombers (i.e. He 111) should be reclassified as (early) strategic bombers (they bombed citys nor tanks right)?? Wasn't the german problem IRL that they lacked the enormous developing-resources needed to build working 4-engined bombers. Further the British night-bombers might be considered as the 1st 4-engined bomber-generation, the B-17/B-24 might be 2nd and the B-29 the 3rd? In game this would mean STR 1 (Whitely) and 2 (Wellington) would be 2-engined, followed by 4-engined STR 3 (Lancaster), 4 (B-17) , 5 (B-29), 6 (B-47), 7 (B-52). I think the best way to hinder german developement of 4-engined STR might be to make them hard to develop for the german tech-teams (if this is possible) /M

 

[egslim]

The scenario loaded ok and they appeared in the game but without any stats or picture and the game crashed when i tried to move them .

I don't even think new models are supposed to appear at all, so perhaps there is a line somewhere in some file that needs to be added too...

On a sidenote I'm not sure long-range "naval fighters" protecting fleets far from a coastline was very realistic anyway - how would they find the ships they should protect at the same time as the enemy torpedo-bombers appeared? IMHO this is why all those expensive carriers were built - they were the only possible solution.

Fly a continuous CAP with two or four aircraft and shoot down any recon aircraft that tries to get close. Even a small CAP would also be sufficient to significantly disrupt attacking waves, playing havoc with their aim.