Epirus in the 1444 start

[Fay]

Hi,

so something that's been bugging me a little for a while is that Epirus is in fact not an independent state at the start of 1444. Even though the Ottomans had conquered a small part of the despotate around 1430 (the city of Ionnina and its surrounding region), the majority of the country hadn't been absorbed into the Turkish realm until 1479.

 

[forrseti]

As I said; split Epirus in two and Albania in three.

One for the Venetians, another for the Turks and the last part belongs to the Albanians?

 

[Fay]

The Despotate in 1444 was confined to a few southern coastal fortresses and Arta itself (which as lost shortly after, in 1449). It would be nice to have them on the map, but it would have to be in a much smaller province than the current Epirus province.

I understand that the despotate did not possess the entirety of the in-game province of Epirus in the 1444 start, but 100% historically accurate borders will never be possible given the limitations the game has in regards to provinces. It's impossible to represent every historic nation that ever existed in the timeframe of the game without making ludicrous changes to the borders. For instance a nation of Monaco would be silly since the country is extremely small. Making a new province of Monaco thus wouldn't really serve much of a purpose.

However, at 1444, the despotate held about 60-70% of what the game currently has as the province of Epirus - so the estimation of "much" smaller isn't particularly accurate. And even if that is the case, why is it such a problem? Nobody really is complaining about Albania holding more territory than it did historically in 1444, nor about the fact many tiny German or Italian states are part of provinces/nations they didn't belong to.
Furthermore, at the time, Epirus was, in fact, bigger than countries that are already represented in the game, e.g. Ragusa or Lucca.

Having Epirus be a starting tag for 1444 would be much more historically accurate than having it be completely in the hands of the Ottomans.

BTW, I'm using this map for reference:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/map-eu-se-1444.jpg

"Porting" this approximately onto the in-game Epirus (older version map, but the province in question still is the same):
http://i.imgur.com/uyYng5L.png

Doesn't look like that much of a difference to me. Note that Corfu is a lot bigger on the game map as well.

 

[Hipster_on_Ice]

The Despotate in 1444 was confined to a few southern coastal fortresses and Arta itself (which as lost shortly after, in 1449). It would be nice to have them on the map, but it would have to be in a much smaller province than the current Epirus province.

They could always do what they did for the Albanians and give the Ottomans a core on the province, it's not exactly an unprecedented situation.

 

[Demetrios]

I understand that the despotate did not possess the entirety of the in-game province of Epirus in the 1444 start, but 100% historically accurate borders will never be possible given the limitations the game has in regards to provinces. It's impossible to represent every historic nation that ever existed in the timeframe of the game without making ludicrous changes to the borders. For instance a nation of Monaco would be silly since the country is extremely small. Making a new province of Monaco thus wouldn't really serve much of a purpose.

However, at 1444, the despotate held about 60-70% of what the game currently has as the province of Epirus - so the estimation of "much" smaller isn't particularly accurate. And even if that is the case, why is it such a problem? Nobody really is complaining about Albania holding more territory than it did historically in 1444, nor about the fact many tiny German or Italian states are part of provinces/nations they didn't belong to.
Furthermore, at the time, Epirus was, in fact, bigger than countries that are already represented in the game, e.g. Ragusa or Lucca.

Having Epirus be a starting tag for 1444 would be much more historically accurate than having it be completely in the hands of the Ottomans.

BTW, I'm using this map for reference:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/map-eu-se-1444.jpg

"Porting" this approximately onto the in-game Epirus (older version map, but the province in question still is the same):
http://i.imgur.com/uyYng5L.png

Doesn't look like that much of a difference to me. Note that Corfu is a lot bigger on the game map as well.

60 - 70% ? More like 20 - 30%. In 1444, the Despotate consisted of only Arta, Vonitsa, and Angelokastrion, as well as their immediate dependent areas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_III_Tocco

 

[Grand Historian]

One for the Venetians, another for the Turks and the last part belongs to the Albanians?

Yes, that was pretty much the historical situation. Would also perhaps help the Venetians not always try to conquer Albania outright if they can view them as a potential buffer/vassal instead of just an OPM holding one of their cores.

 

[LionLeaf]

Some informations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despotate_of_Epirus#Tocco_dynasty

My only fear It would be a weakening of the ottomans, but I think that would be sufficient increase the development of the provinces of Anatolia.

Give Silistria to Wallachia at the start of 1444 amd add localization of it to Dobrogea

 

[Me_]

Yes, that was pretty much the historical situation. Would also perhaps help the Venetians not always try to conquer Albania outright if they can view them as a potential buffer/vassal instead of just an OPM holding one of their cores.

Indeed, it would help manage a situation where Venice and Ottomans both start with a core on Albania's only province, making it dead meat in AI hands and even without any separatism. The fact that AI Albania always dies very early and rarely even revolts afterwards is somewhat disappointing.

 

[Liquid Ghost]

The fact that AI Albania always dies very early [...] is somewhat disappointing.

That stopped happening since 1.12.

 

[Me_]

That stopped happening since 1.12.

I'm glad to hear that. I've only played one game in 1.12 and Albania did not survive more than two decades - eaten by Ottomans, but I'm guessing that with the initial war now gone, their chances of survival increased significantly. Still - initial cores from two stronger nations do not bode well for them.

 

[Liquid Ghost]

I'm glad to hear that. I've only played one game in 1.12 and Albania did not survive more than two decades - eaten by Ottomans, but I'm guessing that with the initial war now gone, their chances of survival increased significantly. Still - initial cores from two stronger nations do not bode well for them.

Oh, well if two decades is your definition of "very early game", then yes, Albania still disappears within that timeframe. But, it used to be that it was gone within two years of starting and now it gets gobbled up by either Venice or Ottomans within the aforementioned two decades, OR it survives and fights it out with Serbia. That has been my experience.

 

[.Me]

Give Silistria to Wallachia at the start of 1444 amd add localization of it to Dobrogea

I agree with the localization, Silistra was also an indipendent despotate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despotate_of_Dobruja but was conquered by the turks exactly at the end of the crusade of Varna... At the begin of the game

 

[Fay]

I'm glad to hear that. I've only played one game in 1.12 and Albania did not survive more than two decades - eaten by Ottomans, but I'm guessing that with the initial war now gone, their chances of survival increased significantly. Still - initial cores from two stronger nations do not bode well for them.

I've seen Albania completely dominate the Balkans by chewing up Serbia, Bosnia and Ragusa, and then putting up a big fight against the Ottomans, allying themselves with Austria and Castile. They actually had taken some of the Ottoman land, and some pieces of Hungary. It was beautiful. Venice never even dared fighting against them.

 

[Me_]

I agree with the localization, Silistra was also an indipendent despotate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despotate_of_Dobruja but was conquered by the turks exactly at the end of the crusade of Varna... At the begin of the game

Interesting, perhaps the Ottomans should lack a core there and/or there could be a releasable tag there.