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Gunburned

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Another disturbing fact about low-born marriages. Correct me if I'm wrong but after Legacy of Rome most Lords have stopped marring outside their realms. I E marrying Low-borns. Now at first this doesnt seem soo bad but your wrong. If you look at the matter closer you'd see that the AI is almost never gaining inheritance other that from their preset dynasty members already built into the starting years.
8/10 Lords are marrying Low-borns and this is causing a duller game. As pre- Legacy or Rome, Lords had more power to inherit.
It should very very uncommon for that to happen.

What does everyone else think?
Should this be fixed by paradox?
 

justin6477

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Another disturbing fact about low-born marriages. Correct me if I'm wrong but after Legacy of Rome most Lords have stopped marring outside their realms. I E marrying Low-borns. Now at first this doesnt seem soo bad but your wrong. If you look at the matter closer you'd see that the AI is almost never gaining inheritance other that from their preset dynasty members already built into the starting years.
8/10 Lords are marrying Low-borns and this is causing a duller game. As pre- Legacy or Rome, Lords had more power to inherit.
It should very very uncommon for that to happen.

What does everyone else think?
Should this be fixed by paradox?

The "political threat" (or whatever its called) malus seems a bit stiff. I'll say that much. I also had an issue where I landed my sons as children (handed them duchies and Kingdoms in fact), and they never married. I outlived all 8 of my sons, they died in their 20s without wives or heirs.

When I went back (noticed after I inherited their titles) to try and fix this, they wouldn't accept any marriages because "they wanted a better alliances". Impudent little shits, here I find them a pretty wife with decent stats and the lustful trait to pump out heirs and they decide to die virgins instead.
 

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I meant AI characters. They should behave more or less like real nobles of the period barring perhaps some extremely unenjoyable situations for the human player. The human player is always set as special, it is therefore understandable that his dynasty will have survived in the end. Else it wouldn't have been the protagonist of the story which the game gets him through, just like in a book or film. There's no need to streamline the behaviour of AI characters into more modern or more game-goal-aware patterns. The alternative is CK2 kinda looking like those politically correct RPGs where even sentries at a castle gate are exactly one half female (or black, or both).

no, i dont agree. this would make it RIDICULOUSLY easy for the player to inherit realms, and even worse, make blobbing awfull with people inheriting stuff all over the place. i'd prefer a system where brothers/uncles go before daughters simply because peopelw ould rather follow a man than a woman. this would at the evry least require pressign the claims of the woman, and would limit the dieing ot of dynasties with plenty of members left in the main line.
 

Aardvark Bellay

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Firstof all:

Lowborns are nobles. Even ERE emperors were of lower noble birth sometimes.

Second:

In my current game Navarra inherited England
Some french duchy inherited Galloway
Georgia inherited several duchies in the ERE.

Inheritance happens.
 

NewbieOne

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"Want a better alliance" has always been a mystery...

It's better than it used to be! But it does feel bad when the same guy goes on to marry a random lowborn.

no, i dont agree. this would make it RIDICULOUSLY easy for the player to inherit realms, and even worse, make blobbing awfull with people inheriting stuff all over the place. i'd prefer a system where brothers/uncles go before daughters simply because peopelw ould rather follow a man than a woman. this would at the evry least require pressign the claims of the woman, and would limit the dieing ot of dynasties with plenty of members left in the main line.

Well, the human player inherits a lot more when he plays more gamely, combining methodical assassination into the effort. That's not really something the game can stop any more than e.g. reloading if your father in law finally gets himself a son. Otherwise, marrying a son to a landed woman means you lose control of him, so you need to arrange a betrothal and give him an equally ranked title after they accept. This is still difficult and costly because you need to spare that duchy (which means you need to have one to spare) and it's also risky because the fiancée can die or the betrothal be broken by either party (has happened to me), and sometimes when they're already both landed and married she dies first and you don't have High Crown Authority. A human player will often intervene with revocations or assassinations to stop this, which is definitely not ahistorical but it's kinda in the gamey region and again something that's just bound to be exploited by players and can't really be stopped. But very often you simply don't have the spare duchies or even the children to effect all of the potential great inheritances.

Firstof all:

Lowborns are nobles. Even ERE emperors were of lower noble birth sometimes.

Well, in German nobility the distinction between high and low nobility is peculiar. For example, all Briefadel (nobles created by writ) are by definition low nobility, no matter how high a title they receive even if it's duke (so you have dukes belonging to low nobility), and of the old nobility (basically immemorial nobility, the Uradel), while they're theoretically considered to be all equal to each other regardless of the title, it still takes at least a family of counts to qualify for the status of high nobility (barons and counts being out of luck unless perhaps they stem from someone more important than that), and this on the additional condition that there weren't any female ancestors originating from the low nobility, in which situation the entire family from that point on devolved to the low nobility even despite keeping all the high titles. So it's impossibly hard to be high nobility in the German system, it's mostly for mediatised princes and I'm not sure if all of them actually would qualify. Counts would be a grey area, even though in old German terms a specifically titled count (Graf) used to rank higher than a generic prince (fürst) until this changed later. So in this sense, all barons and most counts in CK2 would be lower nobles if they weren't cadets of someone bigger, and even a number of dukes (historically, a ministerialis could be appointed duke of some land, which could lead to a curious situation of an unfree person being a semi-royal ruler of free persons). But low nobility didn't at all equal low birth in the old German system, as low nobles were still specifically titled "highborn", "well-born" etc. (Wohlgeboren, hochgeboren etc.). They were low nobility, but still highborn.

As for the Kaisers and Kings of the Romans, while most were actually counts at the moment of election of the first member (Salians, Luxemburgers, Rudolf v. Habsburg, Günther von Schwarzburg, William of Holland, Henry Raspe, Adolf of Nassau) or fresh dukes (the Hohenstaufer, Lothair of Supplinburg), each one of them without a single exception was at least a reigning count, no younger sons or brothers, barons, knights etc. And they were quite respectable counts: Raspe was the Landgrave of Thuringia, William was a Gerolfing and Holland was a Carolingian county, Luxemburgers were cadets of the ducal house of Limburg, Günther v. Schwarzburg was shabby in terms of power but had XXI for his regnal number, Nassau and Habsburg were respectable by the time as well. All or almost all of these guys would be high nobility.

As for Lowborns in CK2, please note that generic "of x" courtiers are the veritable nobodies who just hang out at the court, despite being referred to as "great houses" in the people finder. This group includes mayors, merchant families from Italy (correctly BTW) and other such, which means that low nobility is basically the randomly generated courtiers and the historical barons and some counts (in fact some dukes too but let's not go there). They can't even begin to compare to a Gerolfing or an early Habsburg. The real lowborns would need to be someone of lower birth than the most generic nobody of a courtier that doesn't even have a family listed on his character sheet (the "invite a steward" type of courtier). IMHO knights and squires could perhaps fit into the Lowborn category but it's mostly for the "ignoble"folk (the "roturiers"). This makes sense from the PoV of a king or perhaps duke, where the social distance between him and either a knight or a merchant/peasant seems so high anyway that the difference between the knight and the peasant is negligible but from the PoV of a baron or count the difference between a knight from a knightly family (not talking about, say, a peasant knighted for bravery) and a peasant for marriage would be much more meaningful.

Second:

In my current game Navarra inherited England
Some french duchy inherited Galloway
Georgia inherited several duchies in the ERE.

Inheritance happens.

That's normal! Weirder and more massive inheritances had taken place in the real world, e.g. Austrian Habsburgs basically inherited Spain from the Reyes Catholicos and Burgundy from the last Capetian duke... speaking of Capetians, the d'Anjou cadets actually put themselves in Sicily, Naples, Hungary and even briefly Poland (where they were inherited by the previously pagan dukes of Lithuania of all people), Scottish kings inherited England, which had been inherited by a semi-Welsh lord related to the Plantagenets, whose cousins of the older (but not oldest) house of Anjou got to rule in Jerusalem... not to mention the combination of the Norman inheritance with that of Eleanor of Aquitaine for England, sometimes being a half of all France if not more. Just some examples, there were plenty. Your game sounds conservative! ;)
 

Aardvark Bellay

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Well, in German nobility the distinction between high and low nobility is peculiar. For example, all Briefadel (nobles created by writ) are by definition low nobility, no matter how high a title they receive even if it's duke (so you have dukes belonging to low nobility), and of the old nobility (basically immemorial nobility, the Uradel), while they're theoretically considered to be all equal to each other regardless of the title, it still takes at least a family of counts to qualify for the status of high nobility (barons and counts being out of luck unless perhaps they stem from someone more important than that), and this on the additional condition that there weren't any female ancestors originating from the low nobility, in which situation the entire family from that point on devolved to the low nobility even despite keeping all the high titles. So it's impossibly hard to be high nobility in the German system, it's mostly for mediatised princes and I'm not sure if all of them actually would qualify. Counts would be a grey area, even though in old German terms a specifically titled count (Graf) used to rank higher than a generic prince (fürst) until this changed later. So in this sense, all barons and most counts in CK2 would be lower nobles if they weren't cadets of someone bigger, and even a number of dukes (historically, a ministerialis could be appointed duke of some land, which could lead to a curious situation of an unfree person being a semi-royal ruler of free persons). But low nobility didn't at all equal low birth in the old German system, as low nobles were still specifically titled "highborn", "well-born" etc. (Wohlgeboren, hochgeboren etc.). They were low nobility, but still highborn.

As for the Kaisers and Kings of the Romans, while most were actually counts at the moment of election of the first member (Salians, Luxemburgers, Rudolf v. Habsburg, Günther von Schwarzburg, William of Holland, Henry Raspe, Adolf of Nassau) or fresh dukes (the Hohenstaufer, Lothair of Supplinburg), each one of them without a single exception was at least a reigning count, no younger sons or brothers, barons, knights etc. And they were quite respectable counts: Raspe was the Landgrave of Thuringia, William was a Gerolfing and Holland was a Carolingian county, Luxemburgers were cadets of the ducal house of Limburg, Günther v. Schwarzburg was shabby in terms of power but had XXI for his regnal number, Nassau and Habsburg were respectable by the time as well. All or almost all of these guys would be high nobility.

As for Lowborns in CK2, please note that generic "of x" courtiers are the veritable nobodies who just hang out at the court, despite being referred to as "great houses" in the people finder. This group includes mayors, merchant families from Italy (correctly BTW) and other such, which means that low nobility is basically the randomly generated courtiers and the historical barons and some counts (in fact some dukes too but let's not go there). They can't even begin to compare to a Gerolfing or an early Habsburg. The real lowborns would need to be someone of lower birth than the most generic nobody of a courtier that doesn't even have a family listed on his character sheet (the "invite a steward" type of courtier). IMHO knights and squires could perhaps fit into the Lowborn category but it's mostly for the "ignoble"folk (the "roturiers"). This makes sense from the PoV of a king or perhaps duke, where the social distance between him and either a knight or a merchant/peasant seems so high anyway that the difference between the knight and the peasant is negligible but from the PoV of a baron or count the difference between a knight from a knightly family (not talking about, say, a peasant knighted for bravery) and a peasant for marriage would be much more meaningful.

Thats all nice and dandy but the whole concept is only german first and only regards nobility as "not old nobility"/"Briefadel" after 1400. So lowborns ingame are still "old nobility".
Even "great houses" males at least were constantly marrying baron-level women.

The valid point in the discussion is that kings and queens do marry lowborns sometimes, which is probably where that shouldnt happen.
Though i cant remember having seen this lately. Only Counts and Dukes, but i havent watched out for this.
 

NewbieOne

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Thats all nice and dandy but the whole concept is only german first and only regards nobility as "not old nobility"/"Briefadel" after 1400. So lowborns ingame are still "old nobility".

Actually even 1350 in the most restrictive opinions. There are recorded patents of nobility by the Kings of the Romans and Kaisers from before 1400. Lowborns who are actually noble can still be "old nobility" in such a case (distinction being immemorial descent rather than a typical date: a 1250 grant would still not make Uradel but only Briefadel, if one were to be discovered in some library, it's just that a mention as noble in sources from before 1350/1400 is normally conclusive proof that it was not a paper grant) but thing is that the German definition of low nobility is so spacious that even some dukes and princes fit into it. Also, like I said, low nobility =/= low birth. Low nobility, no matter if it's Uradel or Briefadel, is still high birth or at least good birth, but not low birth. Lowborns in the game rank evenbelow a landless generic courtier with a random name and shield and no family. Those courtiers are really the low nobility or in some cases they can actually not be nobles (mayors and their courtiers as per most countries) and Lowborns are even lower than that. Look also at the fact they don't have a dynasty and can't pass it on, needing to continue the mother's. I think a ritter or edle would be allowed to pass it on like a normal noble upon marrying the odd sister of a count or duke (if really lucky). And I doubt even a simple ritter or edle would be referred to as a lowborn in Germany or France or basically anywhere other than modern England.

Using a German analogy, if you play as a duke or count and create a random burgher vassal, there's no way he or his kids are nobles (different thing if you're the emperor, as the patriciate of imperial free cities was a different matter) and yet they have a dynasty name and shields and wouldn't be "Lowborns". If you play as a duchess, you can create a random mayor and marry him (may well have better stats than the castle vassals, my last Marshal of France was a mayor).
 
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Aardvark Bellay

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Paradox (iirc Doomdark himself) mentioned it once that they are supposed to be low nobility. There are also "great houses" member newly generated by the game, just like the lowborns.

Its probably done gamewise to avoid confusion with too many generated un-related "great house" members, because at least i do find it irritating to see lots of unrelated nobles with the same name.
The Lowborns are a simple solution to the confusion problem. Otherwise you'd have to get many more names for generated nobles in your court and that might be hard historically where there are
not many sources and would mean much more work.

So probably just a gamedesign decision out of the plausibility scope for practical reasons.
 

NewbieOne

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Paradox (iirc Doomdark himself) mentioned it once that they are supposed to be low nobility. There are also "great houses" member newly generated by the game, just like the lowborns.

Its probably done gamewise to avoid confusion with too many generated un-related "great house" members, because at least i do find it irritating to see lots of unrelated nobles with the same name.
The Lowborns are a simple solution to the confusion problem. Otherwise you'd have to get many more names for generated nobles in your court and that might be hard historically where there are
not many sources and would mean much more work.

So probably just a gamedesign decision out of the plausibility scope for practical reasons.

Well, I certainly don't disagree with the idea of Lowborns as a class containing the lowest ranks of the nobles and the practical considerations are understandable but like I said, for consistency reasons they'd have to represent a lower class than the random-est, landless-est, family-less courtiers or else it would make more sense for the AI to create a random young female courtier through "present a debutante" and marry her if she proves more or less okay.
 

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I have to say i my most recent game I have not noticed the marrying of Low Born's being an issue... Most I find my title holders marrying each other and upsetting my plans to keep them all weak.

You stop paying attention for a couple of generations and then notice one Duchy of York badge over the whole north of England... :D
 

Ruwaard

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Thats all nice and dandy but the whole concept is only german first and only regards nobility as "not old nobility"/"Briefadel" after 1400. So lowborns ingame are still "old nobility".
Even "great houses" males at least were constantly marrying baron-level women.

The valid point in the discussion is that kings and queens do marry lowborns sometimes, which is probably where that shouldnt happen.
Though i cant remember having seen this lately. Only Counts and Dukes, but i havent watched out for this.

Actually the French concept of nobility is not that different, with la noblesse d'extraction (more or less noble by birth*; further divided in la noblesse d'extraction chevaleresque (oldest), la noblesse d'ancienne extraction, and la noblesse d'extraction (newest) ), like the German Uradel and la noblesse par anoblissement (noble by enoblement), like the German Briefadel.

(*= my knowledge of German is better than my knowledge of French)

Lowborns could be eligible, but (together (probably not implemented) with the dynastic origins) as the rank of the spouse increases the less likely the are considered a good enough match and if they do marry, maybe vassals should receive negative opinion modifier (especially when they had potential brides from their own (not lowborn) dynasty).
 

NewbieOne

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Okay, newest news from my game: a 13th century start as France (a little after the fourth crusade/sack of Constantinople, which happened in 1204). My brother the Duke of Normandy married a Lowborn. His daughter inherited him, amarried regularly to the junior son of an insignificant count (de Guines). Their daughter, already a de Guines, and current heir, is married an old Lowborn mayor with poor stats. Come on, this is ridiculous.
 

Aardvark Bellay

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Actually the French concept of nobility is not that different, with la noblesse d'extraction (more or less noble by birth*; further divided in la noblesse d'extraction chevaleresque (oldest), la noblesse d'ancienne extraction, and la noblesse d'extraction (newest) ), like the German Uradel and la noblesse par anoblissement (noble by enoblement), like the German Briefadel.

(*= my knowledge of German is better than my knowledge of French)

Lowborns could be eligible, but (together (probably not implemented) with the dynastic origins) as the rank of the spouse increases the less likely the are considered a good enough match and if they do marry, maybe vassals should receive negative opinion modifier (especially when they had potential brides from their own (not lowborn) dynasty).

Regarding different nobility levels my point was merely that thats for nobility created around the 100years war and the one that bought nobel titles later and thus wouldnt play an important role in a game that starts 1066.
My reason to post in this thread were some posts calling lowborns commoners, which they are not and i don't really see much an issue with lowborns.