Enhancements for 1.04

[Petrarca]

Taking away any from Russia would see it fall behind countries like Austria, which IMHO should not be the case. Also, Russia's factories are not well suited to future economic expansion (i.e. no cement factory).

I was just reading The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers's section on the 19th century. It made me laugh in depair when I compared the historical backwardness of Russia to its position in my game as the world's leading industrial power.

Per Capita GNP of the European Great Powers, 1830-1890
                1830 1840 1850 1860 1870 1880 1890
Britain         346  394  458  558  628  680  785
Russia          170  170  175  178  250  224  182
Habsburg Empire 250  266  283  288  305  315  361

A general lack of capital, low consumer demand, a minsicule middle class, vast distances and extreme climates, and the heavy hand of autocratic, suspicious state made the prospects for industrial "takeoff" in Russia more difficult than virtually anywhere else in Europe.

 

[Duncan Idaho]

I was just reading The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers's section on the 19th century. It made me laugh in depair when I compared the historical backwardness of Russia to its position in my game as the world's leading industrial power.

Per Capita GNP of the European Great Powers, 1830-1890
                1830 1840 1850 1860 1870 1880 1890
Britain         346  394  458  558  628  680  785
Russia          170  170  175  178  250  224  182
Habsburg Empire 250  266  283  288  305  315  361

No one seems to acknowledge (or I could be way off base) that the vital unbalancing factor in the game engine/mechanics of Victoria is that population is the end all of everything, and that population grows far too rapidly and linearly. The more people you can throw in a factory, the more you can produce, the more you can tax, the more money you can make, the more you can produce, etc. That's why, more times than not, you'll see Russia and China in the top industrial spots of the "Great Eight" (though with 1.03 I hear that China has been crippled, so maybe it's not the case anymore; if so, great!). Maybe if population growth was a curve insted of a linear growth rate this would be less an issue, ie. once population reaches a certain value, based on physical empire size perhaps, it would start to level off. I'm no biologist/evolutionist, but I'm sure that there is an equation to model this natural phenomenon, where population levels in animals begin to reach an equilibrium based on available space/food/resources. I think this type of levelling off would work great; it just doesn't make logical sense for Russia to have close to a billion people in 1915.

And again, I've not yet seen 1.03, so maybe my issues are moot now. If so, that is good!

-Duncan

 

[DGuller]

Russia is really monumentally overpowered in the game. First of all, it boggles my mind why no one addressed its population growth rate in 1.03. To have half a billion Russians is just ludicrous, it's obviously out of whack, I don't see a single reason why it isn't toned down. Also, Russia at the start has far too many craftsmen and clerks. Also, Russia never had farmers in a European sense, that could just go and move to the city and work in factories. Until 1862 they were enserfed and were bound to land, and were still limited in their freedom after emancipation. To correctly handicap Russia like it was handicapped historically, you have to turn all the farmers and laborers into slaves, or at least most of them.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

I was just reading The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers's section on the 19th century. It made me laugh in depair when I compared the historical backwardness of Russia to its position in my game as the world's leading industrial power.

Per Capita GNP of the European Great Powers, 1830-1890
                1830 1840 1850 1860 1870 1880 1890
Britain         346  394  458  558  628  680  785
Russia          170  170  175  178  250  224  182
Habsburg Empire 250  266  283  288  305  315  361

Per Capita GNP is probably not a very good measure in this case, but nevertheless, here is a comparison between Russia & Austria in terms of the amount of population per factory at the start of the Grand Campaign:

Russia - 5.36 million/factory
Austria - 3.8 million/factory

Thus, in a per capita sense, Victoria does not contradict Kennedy.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Russia is really monumentally overpowered in the game. First of all, it boggles my mind why no one addressed its population growth rate in 1.03. To have half a billion Russians is just ludicrous, it's obviously out of whack, I don't see a single reason why it isn't toned down.

Hmm, this is odd. I can't recall the last handsoff game in the beta test where Russia had more than about 325 million in 1920. The average global population growth was about 25% (depending on the amount of wars). Are you doing something in your games that is causing significant immigration to Russia?

 

[unmerged(2238)]

Russia is really monumentally overpowered in the game. First of all, it boggles my mind why no one addressed its population growth rate in 1.03. To have half a billion Russians is just ludicrous, it's obviously out of whack, I don't see a single reason why it isn't toned down. Also, Russia at the start has far too many craftsmen and clerks. Also, Russia never had farmers in a European sense, that could just go and move to the city and work in factories. Until 1862 they were enserfed and were bound to land, and were still limited in their freedom after emancipation. To correctly handicap Russia like it was handicapped historically, you have to turn all the farmers and laborers into slaves, or at least most of them.

I have found Russia to be extremely overpowered due to its population; but not necessarily because of its population growth rate...

 

[DGuller]

Hmm, this is odd. I can't recall the last handsoff game in the beta test where Russia had more than about 325 million in 1920. The average global population growth was about 25% (depending on the amount of wars). Are you doing something in your games that is causing significant immigration to Russia?

No immigration, and my cities have been overflowing with humans in every game of Russia I played. Maybe AI isn't that good at preventing emmigration, but any half-decent player can keep the Russians inside. Also, quick calculation would show that .20 monthly growth rate over the entire game multiplies population by 750%. That means 450 million population. That is a big underestimate, because population rate goes up to at least .25 20 years down the road. Then, you get population growth of 1100% over the course of the game.

 

[DGuller]

I have found Russia to be extremely overpowered due to its population; but not necessarily because of its population growth rate...

For how long have you played Russia? By the turn of the century, you should've had far more Russians that you knew what to do with.

 

[Petrarca]

Per Capita GNP is probably not a very good measure in this case, but nevertheless, here is a comparison between Russia & Austria in terms of the amount of population per factory at the start of the Grand Campaign:

Russia - 5.36 million/factory
Austria - 3.8 million/factory

Thus, in a per capita sense, Victoria does not contradict Kennedy.

I agree with Kennedy that per capita GNP is a far better indicator than total GNP- Russia, like China, was an agrarian economy that ate most of its GNP.
The point of the statistics was to show that Russia made little absolute economic headway and none relatively. In Victoria, however, I just buy enough paper, furniture, and clothes to educate my craftsmen on the WM and I'm well on my way. The coterie of Russian state cultures doesn't hurt either.

 

[Duncan Idaho]

I have found Russia to be extremely overpowered due to its population; but not necessarily because of its population growth rate...

That's kind of a contradictory statement, isn't it? Where do you think that population came from if not from population growth, unless you just meant its initial population? I think I must be misunderstanding you.

-Duncan

 

[Johnny Canuck]

No immigration, and my cities have been overflowing with humans in every game of Russia I played. Maybe AI isn't that good at preventing emmigration, but any half-decent player can keep the Russians inside. Also, quick calculation would show that .20 monthly growth rate over the entire game multiplies population by 750%. That means 450 million population. That is a big underestimate, because population rate goes up to at least .25 20 years down the road. Then, you get population growth of 1100% over the course of the game.

What is the population like in the rest of the world? I.e. if you are keeping migrants in your country, then other countries would be smaller than expected.

 

[DGuller]

What is the population like in the rest of the world? I.e. if you are keeping migrants in your country, then other countries would be smaller than expected.

It's not a zero sum game. If somebody emmigrates from Russia, he's going to reproduce like a human in US, as opposed to like a rabbit in his old home country. As with everything, the difference gets to be exponential over time.

 

[J.J.E.]

I don't think I saw it when I read this thread so...

Is there going to be a fix of the still HUGE AI armies? It really bugs me when I can afford an army of 30 divs as France while UK has 300+ and Prussia 120+ Of course I can see that it raises the difficulty but still...

I'm not sure this can be done with the engine, but it would be nice if the AI countries only tried to have armies 20% or so stronger than mine. This would assure a more normal armament in the world and at the same time I can't cheat by building huge armies while the AI only have small armies.

Anyway that and the POP money issue are my main wishes for 1.04!

 

[Darkrenown]

Are you playing on very hard? If so, the large armies are one of the things making it very hard On normal I have no problems equaling or surpassing the army size of the countries around me.

 

[unmerged(9621)]

1.03 is a great patch. There are a few things still bugging me, though:

1. Colonial wars are still impossible to win sometimes because the other country won't give up. The AI should either have a plan to counter attack effectively, or it should give in.

2. You can't declare a war when you are already at war. Sometimes it is important to be able to do that (to get bases, military access, or just because you are in a minor irrelevant war which for some reason you can't end).

3. The UK has too large an army generally - by about a factor of 20. The UK army should be tiny.

4. Navies don't get modern quickly enough. 1880 CL, CA and BB units should start showing up. By 1900 all navies, including China, should be based on modern ship types. The may be IC or MO units around, but no MOW in UK, Russian, or even Chinese fleets.

5. The UK and Russia (and probably other countries too) march huge numbers of troops around in places where large bodies of men would all die: the Himalayas, Afghanistan etc. This could be stopped by 1) reducing the size of the UK army so that it doesn't go on a rampage in central Asia 2) making central asia a nastier place - make it very, very revolt prone so that the whole thing ends up being filled with rebels if you start conquering it 3) makign the AI less prone to move into the area. There really out to be attrition on AI units, too, but I suppose there's not much hope for that happening.

 

[BaronHans]

I'm not sure if i've seen it but IMHO there should be something like that implemented:

if unit is cut off from core territory of his country then, even if province is taken, there shouldn't be a possibility to refill it . It is a bit ridiculous when I can break through french lines, go at full pace up to Paris, then stay a bit in neighbouring province, capture it, refill and assault the capitol.

in other words: no connection (supply lines) with homeland then no possibility to refill units.

 

[unmerged(15665)]

-D.Guller

Remove all Russian cultures but Russian, problem solved. I very rarely see them over 150 million with that change, and they are significantly weaker (although still not weak enough) economically. I think changing alot of their farmer POPs to slaves, and having a malus to the tax efficiency of large nations would work quite well.

 

[djconklin]

Fix (assuming I understand how it works!) the WM so that if we set it to buy if we have less than, say, 50 units then it will stop buying when we have 51 units. The sell side seems to work correctly.

 

[Gwalcmai]

Funny, I haven't noticed stocks above my requested stock level unless I'm actually producing above my requirements...

 

[DGuller]

-D.Guller

Remove all Russian cultures but Russian, problem solved. I very rarely see them over 150 million with that change, and they are significantly weaker (although still not weak enough) economically. I think changing alot of their farmer POPs to slaves, and having a malus to the tax efficiency of large nations would work quite well.

How would that stem the tide of Russian babies with human player? I'm sure AI would find a way to do a worse job than Nicholas II, but I don't see how it would make a Russia controlled by me any less populous. Minorities reproduce at the same rate.