Enhancement: Transylvania provinces/culture/terrain

[User4035]

Transylvania is obviously quite popular so lets get it right!


Regarding provinces:
The area would also benefit from adding 1 more province.Currently the only mountain region is Maros and Maramaros. The current province of Hunyad also seems a bit large. It should be split in two with the lower region being mountains/hills. Upper region being hills.

Here is a topographical map:

It might be a little difficult to research for c. 1400-1520 for this region regarding cultures but here is what I've found:
A suggestion is that you can add a Szekey sub culture to Hungarian. Maros province and the new province get those cultures. Make Hungary a cultural union of those 2. Or just leave t as Hungarian.
The new smaller province of Hunyad should be changed to Romanian.
The map also shows saxon settlers but those get eventually get integrated into romanian and hungarian.

Regarding Wallachia

The provinces seem a bit off. 3 in a row and all farmlands. there should be some mountains in there.
I suggest the 3 provinces be tweaked. Have an elongated northen province that is mountains or hills. And then an eastern and western province. And they all meet in the middle.
In the image below the counties split the country in the middle from east to west.

I am suggesting more mountains and hills is partly because they are obviously there, and partly for some fun gameplay as hills and mountains provide some nice defensive provinces for nations to use.

 

[Mad King James]

I searched for about 2 hours trying to find sources on culture in Transylvania for 1444 period and that map was all I found. ....google isn't what it once was and my days of library stomping are over.

By 1848 the census clearly show there are alot f Romanians. But paradox don't fix later start dates anymore cause no one plays them.

If I had to guess I would assume that populations moved about during or just after ottoman control so that would be the time frame that Romanians went into that area.

Maybe there was some depopulation in the area? Some battles? Maybe Romanians spread north because there was extra room. Or they fled north when ottomans pushed out of Hungary?

This never occurred. The Magyars of Transylvania are the Szekely, the Germans of Transylvania are the "Saxons" (they were actually from the Rhineland) and together these groups formed the ruling aristocracy of Transylvania. These two groups only made up a majority in a few areas, all other areas had a Romanian and Orthodox majority population ruled over by a Magyar and German aristocracy.

Only within those yellow areas do Szekely form a majority, only in the blue areas did Germans form a majority, and Hungarians didn't form a majority anywhere (though about a third of the aristocrats were Magyar from Hungary).

To quote: Antun Vrančić (Antonius Verancsics) (1504–1573) wrote about the inhabitants of Transylvania and about the Romanians: "the country is inhabited by three nations, Székelys, Hungarians, Saxons; I would nevertheless add the Romanians, who, though they rather outnumber [the others(?)] have no freedom, no aristocracy, no right of their own, besides a small number living in the Haţeg district, where they say Decebal’s capital was, and who, during the time of John Hunyadi, born there, were granted aristocratic status because they had always taken part in the struggle against the Turks. The other [Romanians] are all commoners, bondsmen to the Hungarians and having no place of their own, spread everywhere, throughout the country" and lead "a miserable life".

 

[Itchel]

Yes, The hungarian land was depopulated by the war with the turks and the romanians began to spread as with the serbs croats austrians and slovaks... (some in very minor scale so little as a few towns or 1 city)

But I have heard of romanians living in transylvania prior to this although they were not a majority and sparsely populated

 

[Mad King James]

This is not true, the Ottomans never "depopulated" areas they conquered. Military frontier districts ended up often depopulated due to constant war and raiding but those were in Croatia and Slovakia and the depopulation was limited to the actual front line.

I literally cited a writer from the 1550s who stated Romanians made up the majority in Transylvania, although a powerless majority. The closest parallel would be the Normans in post-conquest England. All the aristocrats were French, the official language was French and all the landowners were French, but the overwhelming majority of the population was English.

 

[User4035]

This is not true, the Ottomans never "depopulated" areas they conquered. Military frontier districts ended up often depopulated due to constant war and raiding but those were in Croatia and Slovakia and the depopulation was limited to the actual front line.

I literally cited a writer from the 1550s who stated Romanians made up the majority in Transylvania, although a powerless majority. The closest parallel would be the Normans in post-conquest England. All the aristocrats were French, the official language was French and all the landowners were French, but the overwhelming majority of the population was English.

I read the posts carefully and no one is saying the ottomans arbitrarily depopulated(Edit: In my post I did ask if anyone knew and I guess you answered it). Depopulation can happen due to wars - drafting all the men, sacking towns(raping and killing, etc...) famine caused by the wars(armies taking food). Then when an area has less people, typically other groups start migrating there.

So what we see from the maps is that Transylvania is obviously mixed. And in EU4 mechanics it would need more provinces to correctly show culture on the map. Also, you can't just throw saxon in there because its not the same saxon as in game, apparently it would be Rhinelander?
If we had population this would be easy. But we do not.
So I guess with the current provinces Maros could be changed to Szekely. And Hunyad is very mixed so could either stay as Hungarian or be changed to Romanian.

 

[123e55]

So what do we have until now? Let's not make for others a torture to read so much

 

[User4035]

So what do we have until now? Let's not make for others a torture to read so much

Exactly what I had in the first post.

 

[Mad King James]

Not exactly, the blue part you have on your first map is not the Romanian populated area, it was the part of Transylvania that was owned by the Prince of Wallachia.

The Romanian populated area is all the other areas.

 

[User4035]

Not exactly, the blue part you have on your first map is not the Romanian populated area, it was the part of Transylvania that was owned by the Prince of Wallachia.

The Romanian populated area is all the other areas.

Oh, I thought the question was about what to change in game. ....he didn't want to read everything but if anyone is to lazy to glance at the maps I can't help them there. lol.

The maps we all posted pretty much state from the source that it shows the majority but make sure to note that the areas were all mixed.

 

[123e55]

The culture in Transylvania will ever be a problem.. And I dont see what can change that.. The distribution of Romanians in village are a big problem because we can't just show that in-game...

 

[Emperor Hadrian]

I think there are two things that must be done in order to settle this issue:
1. The provinces need to be reworked! Hunyad is huge and should be split in half like Danzig was, with the province of Cluj or Kolozsvar in hungarian and Klausenberg in german being the upper part and Hunedoara or Hunyad in hungarian being the other .Cluj's capital city would be Cluj and Hunyad's would be Alba Iulia. Temes should be renamed Banat because that is the name of the historical region with Timisoara as capital of the province. Bihar or Bihor is just a county in toadys Romania and the province should be Crisana or Korosvidek in hungarian and Kreischegebiet in german with Oradea as province capital. Somewhere between Banat and Crisana there could be (not necessary) the small province (size of Frankfurt or Avignon) of Arad with the city of Arad because it was historicaly an importan center of trade and a strategic fortified city. Maros should also be split in half like Danzig with the northern province of Mures/Maros/Kreis Mieresch and Tirgu Mures as province capital and the souhern province of Brasov/Brasso/Kronstadt and Brasov as the city. Somewhere between Brasov and Hunedoara is the city of Sibiu which could be represented as another Frankfurtian province by Sibiu/Nagyszeben/Hermannstadt. Again, it was a very important city since medieval times but not necessary to be put in the game. Maramaros should also be resized to better fit the historical borders of Romania by splitting it in half. The southern part is in todays Romania and should be called Maramures with province capital Baia Mare and the northern part is part of the modern day ukrainian Zakarpattia Oblast. I don't know exactly how it could be named, maybe someone from Ukraine could help. All these provinces should be at least 10 base tax with Arad being farmlands, Banat and Crisana just planes, Hunedoara and Cluj hills and Brasov, Sibiu, Mures, and Maramures mountains. They should be part of the romanian region alongside with Wallachian and Moldavian provinces and once Romania is formed, it should have a claim on all of them. The borders should be in a way that it would be possible to recreate those of the Romanian Kingdom.
2. If Paradox is not willing to change the culture in Transylvania to romanian then they could at least create an event to represent the historical process in which majority was gained by romanian people in the region. But with a total of 5 provinces(Banat, Crisana, Brasov, Arad, Sibiu), a total of 50 base tax would mean that romanian would be an accepted culture in Hungary and it wouldn't make any difference, except for historical accuracy. Mures can remain hungarian and Maramures ruhtenian.

 

[123e55]

The southern part is in todays Romania and should be called Maramures with province capital Baia Mare

1.Actually, Sighetu Marmatiei was the province capital until 1919 Baia Mare was only a little village. ( Fortunately I live in Sighet so I documented myself xD )

2. If Paradox is not willing to change the culture in Transylvania to romanian then they could at least create an event to represent the historical process in which majority was gained by romanian people in the region. But with a total of 5 provinces(Banat, Crisana, Brasov, Arad, Sibiu), a total of 50 base tax would mean that romanian would be an accepted culture in Hungary and it wouldn't make any difference, except for historical accuracy

2.Hmm...maybe if they lower the base tax, and make an event to raise it when it comesin romanian occupation? Because romanian language was forbidden in Hungary.. :/

 

[Emperor Hadrian]

1.Actually, Sighetu Marmatiei was the province capital until 1919 Baia Mare was only a little village. ( Fortunately I live in Sighet so I documented myself xD )
2.Hmm...maybe if they lower the base tax, and make an event to raise it when it comesin romanian occupation? Because romanian language was forbidden in Hungary.. :/

Yes, you are wright about Sighetu Marmatiei, sorry about that. It wasn't forbidden, you just lost your status and wealth if you didn't convert to catholicism and didn't get a magyar name. You could speak romanian as hungarians speak hungarian in todays Romania.

 

[123e55]

Yes, you are wright about Sighetu Marmatiei, sorry about that. It wasn't forbidden, you just lost your status and wealth if you didn't convert to catholicism and didn't get a magyar name. You could speak romanian as hungarians speak hungarian in todays Romania.

No problem with that, not very much people knows about that
Well, it was no OFFICIALLY forbidden, but let's recognise, losing your status and enforcing you to speak hungarian is like they forbid it My grand-grand-father ( I think that is how I need to translate it ) ) changed his name in hungarian one and spoke only hungarian because the officials warned him he will lose his house if not
They weren't tolerating our language.

 

[Emperor Hadrian]

No problem with that, not very much people knows about that
Well, it was no OFFICIALLY forbidden, but let's recognise, losing your status and enforcing you to speak hungarian is like they forbid it My grand-grand-father ( I think that is how I need to translate it ) ) changed his name in hungarian one and spoke only hungarian because the officials warned him he will lose his house if not
They weren't tolerating our language.

Yes, that's also a problem. Altough the culture was romanian/vlach, because of hungarian names it was counted as hungarian and therefore missinterpreted by historians. I think only romanians actually know about and/or care about this.

 

[123e55]

As I said,Transylvania will NEVER be historically accurate. It is just impossible!
If we put romanian on all regions is injustice for Hungary.
If we let anything hungarian will be injustice for Romania.
If we put Carpathian on all regions it is not historically accurate.
Lol.

 

[Emperor Hadrian]

Yeah, but nobody would be mad if they stay hungarian and then the provinces become romanian either through an event or after being conquered by a country with romanian as their main culture. The problem is what happens if hungary claims them and conquers them again? Should they stay romanian? Change back to hungarian? I have no ideea...it's tricky, maybe we need some expert's opinion

 

[talilu]

Extended Vanilla Experience mod had a really good province setup in Transilvania and seperated Transilvanian and Vlach cultures from Hungarian and South Slavic groups. It had all 4 provinces of Transilvania as Transilvanian culture. According to stuff I read in wiki, I tried to tweak it a little, making Temes Transilvanian, Brasov Hungarian and Hunyad Rheinish. Also added Gagauz culture to Bessarabia but that might be wrong . Hope this setup is close(r) to reality.

 

[Emperor Hadrian]

Extended Vanilla Experience mod had a really good prov

Extended Vanilla Experience mod had a really good province setup in Transilvania and seperated Transilvanian and Vlach cultures from Hungarian and South Slavic groups. It had all 4 provinces of Transilvania as Transilvanian culture. According to stuff I read in wiki, I tried to tweak it a little, making Temes Transilvanian, Brasov Hungarian and Hunyad Rheinish. Also added Gagauz culture to Bessarabia but that might be wrong . Hope this setup is close(r) to reality.

Yes, it is, especially how they split up Hunyad and Maros. But, transylvanian culture? Not really, it's only romanian. Altough I can understand how this could solve the issue of either romanian or hungarian...but no, sorry, I could never agree

 

[123e55]

well, it is true people from Transylvania use a bit changed romanian, but sadly no..

 

[talilu]

When I modded the mod (lol), Transilvanian Culture was already in so I didn't really think of replacing it with Vlach. Also, it might be there to stop Wallachia from popping up randomly in Hungary or to keep Transilvanian cores in Transilvania forever by making it the Primary Nation of Transilvanian Culture. Besides, cultural diversity is the best!