Enhancement: Transylvania provinces/culture/terrain

[User4035]

Transylvania is obviously quite popular so lets get it right!


Regarding provinces:
The area would also benefit from adding 1 more province.Currently the only mountain region is Maros and Maramaros. The current province of Hunyad also seems a bit large. It should be split in two with the lower region being mountains/hills. Upper region being hills.

Here is a topographical map:

It might be a little difficult to research for c. 1400-1520 for this region regarding cultures but here is what I've found:
A suggestion is that you can add a Szekey sub culture to Hungarian. Maros province and the new province get those cultures. Make Hungary a cultural union of those 2. Or just leave t as Hungarian.
The new smaller province of Hunyad should be changed to Romanian.
The map also shows saxon settlers but those get eventually get integrated into romanian and hungarian.

Regarding Wallachia

The provinces seem a bit off. 3 in a row and all farmlands. there should be some mountains in there.
I suggest the 3 provinces be tweaked. Have an elongated northen province that is mountains or hills. And then an eastern and western province. And they all meet in the middle.
In the image below the counties split the country in the middle from east to west.

I am suggesting more mountains and hills is partly because they are obviously there, and partly for some fun gameplay as hills and mountains provide some nice defensive provinces for nations to use.

 

[Martin_Mortyry]

Now that's a pretty good suggestion! Transylvanian cultures have been disputed in here for months, without visible effects, really. If this map is legit, we could consider the case closed. Except for those new cultures emerging from the idea - should Transylvanian Saxons be in magyar or German culture group? Then again, if German they'd need their own tag so they won't randomly flip to Saxony or other Austria.
And should Romanian be an accepted culture in Hungary? Maybe let's get rid off Magyar culture group and replace it with Carpathian? Then make it so both Hungary and Romania(once formed) would be cultural unions of Carpthain people(sort of like Ruthenia and Russia for Eastern Slavs now).

 

[User4035]

When I looked at Romanian info the concensus was that:
1) it has its own language group
2) it has Slavic influences but is not Slavic.

Paradox could group hungarian and Romanian together. It would be similar to how Scottish and English are grouped together. In 1444 they are historically not similar but after a couple of centuries they get closer.

The trick with figuring all thus out is finding info from 1444 period.

I would not add Saxon culture in there though. Saxons were brought there but then integrated to local culture. So in the scope of a single province the would almost never be the dominant ones unless we had small counties like in CK2

 

[Martin_Mortyry]

When I looked at Romanian info the concensus was that:
1) it has its own language group
2) it has Slavic influences but is not Slavic.

Paradox could group hungarian and Romanian together. It would be similar to how Scottish and English are grouped together. In 1444 they are historically not similar but after a couple of centuries they get closer.

The trick with figuring all thus out is finding info from 1444 period.

I would not add Saxon culture in there though. Saxons were brought there but then integrated to local culture. So in the scope of a single province the would almost never be the dominant ones unless we had small counties like in CK2

Of what I know they were pretty influencial in Transylvania and never really integrated. There's only few of them in nowadays Transylvania because of resettlements.

 

[User4035]

If you take that culture map I posted and put the current province map over top you'll see that it splits the Saxon and Romanian. Whick leaves Hungarian as like 70% for those provinces.

Hey, my biggest problem with the area isn't the culture. It's actually that they put the mountains right between the borders do it could all be grasslands. Lol.

 

[Martin_Mortyry]

If you take that culture map I posted and put the current province map over top you'll see that it splits the Saxon and Romanian. Whick leaves Hungarian as like 70% for those provinces.

Hey, my biggest problem with the area isn't the culture. It's actually that they put the mountains right between the borders do it could all be grasslands. Lol.

Yeah, that makes little to no sense from strategic point of view.

 

[123e55]

I highly agree!
And regarding Romanian population , Hungary never accepted Romanians and forced them to change names in hungarian ones . Oh and they forbid Romanian . But Transilvania would have it as an accepted culture!
And P.S. Wallachia , Moldavia, France , Spain and Italian countries should be latin too. It is a big huge but it would be really nice to be that historically accurate. Because let's not hide in corners and let's say it: They are all latin.
And P.S.2 (duh) should Transylvania have their own culture group? Romanian and Hungarian combined? Maybe Carpathian or..?
I know what I say because I live in Transylvania county. This informations just 'stored' in our national heritage
It would be cool Wiz to consider this. Because I made a post too about this problems and I think that he just don't care

 

[Martin_Mortyry]

I highly agree!
And P.S.2 (duh) should Transylvania have their own culture group? Romanian and Hungarian combined? Maybe Carpathian or..?
I know what I say because I live in Transylvania county. This informations just 'stored' in our national heritage
It would be cool Wiz to consider this. Because I made a post too about this problems and I think that he just don't care

According to this map they should be Szekely.

 

[123e55]

According to this map they should be Szekely.

Then szekely!
But there should be some Romanian provinces. What about a new province, Făgăraș?

 

[User4035]

There is no Latin group in EU4 mechanics. And it would just be linguistically related anyway.
It's like saying english speakers and Jamaican are the same. ....yes they have same language root but its not same culture.

Culture in games is a combination of linguistic, ethnicity, and customs/culture.

When doing topics like this, for the devs to consider it you can't have modern day nationalism in it.

.....especially for the Balkans areas. I guess 2 world wars and a 1990's NATO beat down wasn't enough to figure it all out.


Hey. I literally have no idea about the szekey people. The source material says the are Hungarians who are more pure Hungarians? Lol.

 

[123e55]

When doing topics like this, for the devs to consider it you can't have modern day nationalism in it.

This is not nationalism.. If 2 languages come from a language can you say that they aren't a bit same and someone should consider it?

 

[User4035]

This is not nationalism..

I was just clarifying why sometimes the devs ignore certain topics.
Hey, like when the Bosnians had a thread way back wanting their own culture simply because of modern day nationalism.

History! It's all about that history!

 

[123e55]

Ahh sorry. I thought it was related on this topic
Anyway your idea is very good and I hope wiz will take it in consideration because.. These things NEED to be clarified.
Not everyone wants to play great powers

 

[Emperor Hadrian]

I think the map showing hungarian majority is exaggerated. Altough hungarians had a majority in the cities, romanians had an overall majority. They didn't revolt in 1848 because they were a minority and historically, hungarians conquered the region in the 10th century from a vlach ruler. They should have more provinces and I would love them to be the same borders as todays romanian Transylvania so if by any means you conquer them as Wallachia/Romania you could acutally recreate the historical borders of Romania. Wallachian provinces are fine, tough Silistre should be split in half, the northern one being Dobruja/Dobrogea in romanian and with romanian culture.

 

[Martin_Mortyry]

I think the map showing hungarian majority is exaggerated. Altough hungarians had a majority in the cities, romanians had an overall majority. They didn't revolt in 1848 because they were a minority and historically, hungarians conquered the region in the 10th century from a vlach ruler. They should have more provinces and I would love them to be the same borders as todays romanian Transylvania so if by any means you conquer them as Wallachia/Romania you could acutally recreate the historical borders of Romania. Wallachian provinces are fine, tough Silistre should be split in half, the northern one being Dobruja/Dobrogea in romanian and with romanian culture.

The fact that Romanians are majority now doesn't mean they were back then, unless you give us a source. Don't want to be rude or anything, this map is the only thing we can rely on right now.

 

[Emperor Hadrian]

The fact that Romanians are majority now doesn't mean they were back then, unless you give us a source. Don't want to be rude or anything, this map is the only thing we can rely on right now.

Well, if you have time to read about the history of Transylvania on wikipedia, it would give some clues about how to settle this issue. There was also a similar topic on slovaks from the northern part of Hungary in which it was said that the rulling nobles and urban citizens were hungarian but most of the population was of slovak culture. It's the same with Transylvania. It's like having francien culture in Rhodes because the rulling Knights were of that culture altough the culture of the province was greek. I'm not 100% sure about the majority of the romanian population in Trans. at the start of the campaign because there are a many historians which say different theories but in time, romanians got to be the majority and maybe this could somehow be represented in the game by an event.

 

[Mad King James]

After a thousand years of Magyar rule and a century of intensive "Magyarization", Romanians were a majority in Transylvania all the way up to Banat in 1867. I have never read a logical argument that made any sense at all how this happened if Magyars were a majority in Transylvania and then somehow became a minority between the 15th century and 1867?

In Szekely lands Magyars made up a huge majority, and almost all the Magyars in Romania live in the Szekely lands right in the middle of Transylvania, and there were lots of Germans and Romani and Jews who lived all throughout Transylvania (though never making up a majority in any of the counties) but yeah the fact of the matter is, Romanians always lived in Transylvania. The key issue is that in medieval times the Catholic Romanians in Transylvania get counted by historians as Magyars <_<.

 

[AndrejK]

Romanian Orthodox population was persecuted...

 

[Itchel]

Finally someone who knows what they're talking about! you arent turning the whole of transylvania into romanian or anything like that without any sources ;P

Although, I do not support adding hungarian into the same group with romanian because they're about as different from the hungarians as the slovakians are to hungarians and perhaps even more so considering slovakia's close proximity to the capital budapest . . .
but I also don't like seeing romanian inside of the south slavic group either, I believe it would be more fitting to be placed within its own group

 

[User4035]

I searched for about 2 hours trying to find sources on culture in Transylvania for 1444 period and that map was all I found. ....google isn't what it once was and my days of library stomping are over.

By 1848 the census clearly show there are alot f Romanians. But paradox don't fix later start dates anymore cause no one plays them.

If I had to guess I would assume that populations moved about during or just after ottoman control so that would be the time frame that Romanians went into that area.

Maybe there was some depopulation in the area? Some battles? Maybe Romanians spread north because there was extra room. Or they fled north when ottomans pushed out of Hungary?