English Longbowmen modifier

[xstormfuryx]

Got to ask, why does England not have a modifier for the longbow? the pivotal tool that made england a military power in the hundred years war and many other battlefields and wars until the rise of early muskets?

I could list all the battle the longbow was the main reasons england won, but i wont, and if your intrested it should bot be hard to find them, but one example is the battle of azincourt, where france held all the advantages, minus the ranged advantaged, and negative terrain, but i believe terrain modifiers are well represented in the game so i'll stop there.

So here is what i suggest, between tech 5 (where the longbow is unlocked for some reason) and the tech where early musket units are available (cant recall off top of my head) england should have some form of modifier, for example infantry combat ability. How much of a modifier, i'll leave it up to people with a better head for balance.

The modifier should be triggered like conquest of rome, with condition of being between the military techs i said, on top of having english or welsh as an accepted culture (so nations that conquer said places can 'locally' recruit longbowmen)

also please nerf the french elan national idea, its far to strong (considering the morale modifier is one of, if not the strongest combat modifier, on top of lucky nations) and the french were not that brave, with the exception when certain commanders led them. Point in case, the amount of times the french retreated from the english when they still had advantages. Once again battle of agincourt.

 

[BrokenSky]

Got to ask, why does England not have a modifier for the longbow? the pivotal tool that made england a military power in the hundred years war and many other battlefields and wars until the rise of early muskets?

I could list all the battle the longbow was the main reasons england won, but i wont, and if your intrested it should bot be hard to find them, but one example is the battle of azincourt, where france held all the advantages, minus the ranged advantaged, and negative terrain, but i believe terrain modifiers are well represented in the game so i'll stop there.

So here is what i suggest, between tech 5 (where the longbow is unlocked for some reason) and the tech where early musket units are available (cant recall off top of my head) england should have some form of modifier, for example infantry combat ability. How much of a modifier, i'll leave it up to people with a better head for balance.

The modifier should be triggered like conquest of rome, with condition of being between the military techs i said, on top of having english or welsh as an accepted culture (so nations that conquer said places can 'locally' recruit longbowmen)

also please nerf the french elan national idea, its far to strong (considering the morale modifier is one of, if not the strongest combat modifier, on top of lucky nations) and the french were not that brave, with the exception when certain commanders led them. Point in case, the amount of times the french retreated from the english when they still had advantages. Once again battle of agincourt.

At the very least primary, not accepted, culture.

Discipline is more important than morale. That said +20% discipline would be ridiculous.
France is meant to be OP.

 

[Itchel]

+20 morale is fine, I cant believe nobody complains about the ottomans 12 discipline which is the true OP around here... (if they took the janissaries event)

 

[xstormfuryx]

+20 morale is fine, I cant believe nobody complains about the ottomans 12 discipline which is the true OP around here... (if they took the janissaries event)

Ok please dont talk about the french morale issue, thats a side issue, i just think english bowmens need some respect in a game that starts in a time period where they was a powerful unit. I'm not saying make it a permenant change such as a national idea, which wouldnt be to uncalled for in my opinon, or why not, as red coat later on, another english unit who is good infantry at later time periods.

But please, what do you think of the idea of any kind of buff modifier to show power of such good historical british units of the tiem period. which covers a fair part of game

 

[Itchel]

Ok please dont talk about the french morale issue, thats a side issue, i just think english bowmens need some respect in a game that starts in a time period where they was a powerful unit. I'm not saying make it a permenant change such as a national idea, which wouldnt be to uncalled for in my opinon, or why not, as red coat later on, another english unit who is good infantry at later time periods.

But please, what do you think of the idea of any kind of buff modifier to show power of such good historical british units of the tiem period. which covers a fair part of game

Yes, I like the longbow event but I don't want to see that french idea nerfed, The french are already pretty nerfed as it is and dont need any more debuffing.

 

[ThePatriotOfDreumel]

Well, England could get a +1 land leader fire modifier.

 

[BrokenSky]

Yeah an english/welsh longbow event would be good. English or Welsh should be primary culture though.

 

[3ishop]

Each country has their own improtant and influencial units, they didn't really change a huge amount and didn't stop England losing a lot of land.

Units like the "redcoats" are covered in the game as a unit option.

 

[xstormfuryx]

Each country has their own improtant and influencial units, they didn't really change a huge amount and didn't stop England losing a lot of land.

Units like the "redcoats" are covered in the game as a unit option.

Other nations have modifiers to troop strengths to show historical power of certain units or drills, point in case the french elan. and the redcoats and english longbowmen are technically in the game, just the fact any western nation can have them, and in the cases of places such as france and prussia/brandenburg, can have better versions then the british. thats what annoys me.

and English lost lands to france yes, but france lost lands to us, a military weaker nation, with less heavy cav and heavy infantry, and less fighting men overall, as well as longer supply and reinforcement routes, all because of the power of the longbowmen did england stand a chance.

I mean come on, other nations get unit modifiers in national idea's and english have one slot which gives 5% ship durability, wow, amazing idea.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

England gets 5% discipline from ideas, right?

 

[xstormfuryx]

England gets 5% discipline from ideas, right?

Yeah, but its for reasons other than what i said, comission buying, buying a rank, with the money being lost in cowardice or gross-misconduct, or other reasons that say your a poor commander.

Also just remembered this, why does italy get 20% infantry combat ability for ancient romans skills, and English get nothing for longbowmen and red coats.

 

[Utretch]

If the start date was far earlier you might have a point for a modifier, but as things stand the era of the Longbow was close to its end and would only be increasingly replaced with gunpowder weapons. Meanwhile the Hundred Years War is basically over, all that's remaining is for France to seize England's continental territories. I don't see what's really gained from an event like this.

 

[xstormfuryx]

If the start date was far earlier you might have a point for a modifier, but as things stand the era of the Longbow was close to its end and would only be increasingly replaced with gunpowder weapons. Meanwhile the Hundred Years War is basically over, all that's remaining is for France to seize England's continental territories. I don't see what's really gained from an event like this.

It was originally about the longbow, but also the redcoats get no respect either in the game, other nations can take the historical british units, and have them better than them, which is just not right in my opinion. also, a quick check, the earliest possible musketmen is roughly tech 12 (free shooter infantry), so around a hundred years gameplay roughly till you get it. (maybe more just guessing numbers from my poor memory) hence why i asked for a triggered modifier initially that can go away. i just forgot about redcoats, as tbh, the time in history where black power weapons started to take form (most of eu4 gametime, i dont care for.)

beyond that, with the english starting monarch a 0/0/0 their usaully the slowest to get to gunpowder units of the western nations, unless their lucky and he dies quickly, i just had a game where he lived to 60+ as general constantly in battles (really annoyed me as i got a good heir early on. a 4/3/6.

point im making, if england doesnt get bonus for their units they actually had, why does a nation like italy get such a powerful modifer for a unit they never had.

 

[3ishop]

Last "noteable use" of the longbow is the battle of Agincourt (1415), first noteable use of firearms seems to be 1503 battle of Cerignola. So not that long and the bows on the decline. Spain doesn't get a bonus for making the terciowhich was far more influencial during the games time period.

Formable Italy seems to be more of a "what if" faction with a lot of ties to the former Roman Empire. So yeah they didn't have amazing infantry, they didn't exist.

The British Redcoats weren't amazing infantry. Only the Napoleon war really showcases them and the losses on both sides don't really make either look amazing. The Way Napoleon managed to thrash multiple coalitions across the continent does support the French ideas tho. We tend to keep out of the continent as much as possible and fight weaker foes.

English/British strength was in the sea and our navy. But whether the English ideas could use a buff is really another question. When you look at the reforms of the new model army from the civil war it's only 10% morale but 10% less manpower for 10 years...

 

[xstormfuryx]

Last "noteable use" of the longbow is the battle of Agincourt (1415), first noteable use of firearms seems to be 1503 battle of Cerignola. So not that long and the bows on the decline. Spain doesn't get a bonus for making the terciowhich was far more influencial during the games time period.

Formable Italy seems to be more of a "what if" faction with a lot of ties to the former Roman Empire. So yeah they didn't have amazing infantry, they didn't exist.

The British Redcoats weren't amazing infantry. Only the Napoleon war really showcases them and the losses on both sides don't really make either look amazing. The Way Napoleon managed to thrash multiple coalitions across the continent does support the French ideas tho. We tend to keep out of the continent as much as possible and fight weaker foes.

English/British strength was in the sea and our navy. But whether the English ideas could use a buff is really another question. When you look at the reforms of the new model army from the civil war it's only 10% morale but 10% less manpower for 10 years...

not going to argue the navy, as not much if anything could beat england with equal heavy ship numbers, in game, thats wtihout other things such as inland sea galleys etc. (full national idea's with no other factors ie maritime and quality)

as for the red coats, i personally cannot argue for or against them, as like i said, i dislike the time period eu4 is set in mostly (no clue why i like the game but i do).

as for english longbows, they were used outside of the hundreds years war with the white company led by sir john hawkwood, and english longbowmen were highly desired as mercenaries across europe, so while yes, the history battle is spiffy, the power and effectiveness of the unit was only surpassed by heavily armoured knights and men at arms in the same era. and even with the rise of muskets, it favoured the longbowmen more as less and less men wore heavy armour due to the punching power of black powder weapons. the only downsides to a longbowmen was the time it took to train a man, but for england that wasn't much of an issue due to the law the passed making people practice, which is still on the books today, even though its not enforced.

In the end you might be right 3ishop, but i truly believe they need some love in game, and beyond that, i got little less to argue in the defence of them, so i will let others talk and input, in the end its up to the developers.

 

[Closet Skeleton]

English longbows are massively over-rated. If only because they're so mythologised the rest of the English army tends to be completely ignored despite being the part that actually secured the victories.

Researching Longbows after they stopped being useful historically is just part of EUIV's meaningless tech system. The only campaign of the Hundred Years war in the game's time frame is the one the English lost completely.

Longbowmen were still used in Henry VIII's reign, but they weren't important or battle winners except at the Battle of Flodden where they were only present because all of the modern English troops were wasting their time in France.

 

[kviiri]

In general, I'm in favor of country-specific fun... in a way. However, this requires some judgment on which country-specific tactics and weapons are notable or awesome enough to warrant bonuses.

Tercio for Spain? Chu-ko-nu for China? Samurai for Japan? The only one that gets such treatment (outside of national ideas) I can think of is the Scottish Highland Charge, which I believe is included to allow the weaker Scotland to stand up to the English like they historically did.

I think national ideas would be a good place for the English free infantrymen tradition.

 

[thegreatuniter]

Primary Culture is English or Welsh, Capital is in the English Region, Is before 1550/1600
- 5% Land morale + 5% Infantry combat ability?
- +1 Land leader fire and +5% infantry combat ability?

England doesn't need a large military bonus, but something like that would bring a lot of flavour.

 

[Scorpene]

Thats à big no.
For one simple reason. You used the term "longbowmen", you indeed probably know that the weapon needed an important training to be efficient. Except that the trained "longbowmen" got slaughtered at the Battle of Patay. ( 1432 ). From This battle england just tried to delay the Day they would leave continental Europe.

The funny thing is the reason they died in that battle. In fact they were spotted by french scout cause they screamed after they shoted down à deer running into their "fireline" before they would have built their défense. French chevaliers had for thé First time the possibility to charge with all their "élan" the outnumbered longbowmen, and that was done.

To sum up your proposal would be good... in ck2. On top of that France need to be strong to balance the fact it is surrounded by dangerous rivals ( not like ottomans ). Burgundy is already overbuffed while they were on the bad way since the assassination of their duke ( 1417 ?) And mysteriously some forget that they were vassals of France. Sweden-like but vassal anyway. In thé bigger part of my out western Europe games France is rekt almost every time. And the New fort system is specifically à trap in the meta for France which rely on a good but limited mp. Which is particularly un fair when you think they had Vauban. A Da Vinci like genius of how to defend or attack à siege castle or city.

 

[xstormfuryx]

Thats à big no.
For one simple reason. You used the term "longbowmen", you indeed probably know that the weapon needed an important training to be efficient. Except that the trained "longbowmen" got slaughtered at the Battle of Patay. ( 1432 ). From This battle england just tried to delay the Day they would leave continental Europe.

The funny thing is the reason they died in that battle. In fact they were spotted by french scout cause they screamed after they shoted down à deer running into their "fireline" before they would have built their défense. French chevaliers had for thé First time the possibility to charge with all their "élan" the outnumbered longbowmen, and that was done.

To sum up your proposal would be good... in ck2. On top of that France need to be strong to balance the fact it is surrounded by dangerous rivals ( not like ottomans ). Burgundy is already overbuffed while they were on the bad way since the assassination of their duke ( 1417 ?) And mysteriously some forget that they were vassals of France. Sweden-like but vassal anyway. In thé bigger part of my out western Europe games France is rekt almost every time. And the New fort system is specifically à trap in the meta for France which rely on a good but limited mp. Which is particularly un fair when you think they had Vauban. A Da Vinci like genius of how to defend or attack à siege castle or city.

the french elan wasnt an issue, when i wrote that the french elan just screwed me over, and sure, point out battles the longbowmen failed epically in, no unit was perfect and 100% win rate. and the very rich, vastly superior equipment french routed the essentially unarmoured english peasents archers? shocker. and in ck2 english and welsh do get a archery bonus, every culture gets a slighty unique unit type bous, i say slightly as its likely another similar culture has the same bonus.

and my suggestion is to add more historical flavour to a historical (if alternate) war simulator, (very few gaems are played where expansion and war aint the focus, even colonial games invovle war.

minor thing, japan and daimyo already get very impressive military combat tradition because of the samurai, 10% discipline and infantry combat ability. (thinking of using them in my next MP game)