English Essay: What are your views on alternate history content?

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Ironside112

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Since this feels like it comes up every month, I may as well entertain the idea ;) Personally, I don't see why HOI4 should be held to different standards than the rest of PDXs games; why does HOI4 need to be a simulator in some people's eyes but not EU4? If it's the time-span, I'd understand to an extent - but the idea that large political shifts couldn't happen in a short time frame is frankly silly.

I've seen the UK's alt history paths been mentioned alongside things such as a successful Sea Lion in this thread and, to me at least, both are equally a-historical (but not necessarily bad).

Alt-democratic path UK is completely implausible for a number of reasons; up until the Munich conference, Chamberlain held a successful majority of support in both the Commons and the party itself. Why would people listen to Churchill, who hasn't changed his tune for the past couple of years, and attempt a potentially party-breaking VoNC? It's stupid, not to mention then being able to declare war on the Netherlands and other oil states because of what they hold, that alone would cause an international incident.

The other UK path I see mentioned a lot in plausibility is that of Edward's monarchy path. Again, completely unreasonable. Public and government perception at the time was heavily against the King's involvement with a divorcee and politicians in the UK were worried Edward would try to influence politics due to a number of incidents regarding colonial governance, IIRC. If Edward didn't accept the terms put forward by Parliament, the much, much more likely resolution would see Parliament force the king to retire the throne (also unheard of but given the circumstances, likely) to George, and if he didn't do that I imagine the question of the monarchy would be drawn into the forefront.

Now, Sea Lion as a concept can be seen as something plausible. The UK had so many ships but weren't all able to defend their shores! Reality, and post-war war-games paint a disastrous picture for any invasion of the UK. A 1970s war-game saw the Germans successfully land on the shores, but were immediately engaged and forced to hold the beach as close as possible. In the next couple of days the Home Fleet based in Scapa Flow would reach the English Channel, and likely decimate any reinforcements or supply chains, ruining any German ships in the vicinity trying to combat them. This isn't a case where the UK would send a handful of destroyers - this would see as much as the RN could muster to counter the threat of actual invasion, I can't see any punches being pulled. Not to mention after the fall of France, the UK was preparing for an invasion - militarily and politically. If the Germans did land, it wouldn't be against a foe such as France, it would be more equivalent to that of the USSR; civilians cutting telephone lines, planting road mines, ambushing patrols, etc. I can't see the Germans even reaching Dover.

Now, whilst all 3 of these are completely a-historical, people consider them plausible. Why? Because the game manages to either successfully convey a "realistic" story for them, or gives the player the agency to carry it out themselves. Both the UK paths mentioned are based in historical reality, which makes crafting an alternative story seem more realistic or plausible than it actually is - that to me is a trademark of what makes good alt-history. Communist and fascist UK fall flat for other reasons than just that, but the way they approach the topic is a lot less ingrained in history - a simple google search will result in the Battle of Cable Street and Jarrow March, both influential events that, if handled slightly differently, may have led to a shift in the political landscape yet they are unused. The same goes for the USA's alt history branches. Quite obscure, but only 3 years before the start HOI4 a conspiracy was un-earthed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot which called for the overthrow of the government and replacement with a fascist head of state. Sounds silly, but after seeing how most large corporations and businesses - which controlled the newspapers - were implicated, there's still enough there to craft an interesting story.

This is getting a bit long now so I'll wrap it up; alt-history is only as good as it is presented, in my opinion. Tactical changes, like an invasion of the UK or choosing to invade Gibraltar, are controlled by actually playing the game itself thus making it realistically plausible within the game's framework as the player has agency. Political shifts are doable, so long as a good enough story is crafted and presented to take the player through to the end goal of switching ideology - I personally really like the way the Soviet tree handles this, as it puts forward a lot of the ideological challenges returning to the monarchy would pose yet you overcome them by playing the game, not by completing a focus.

Just a quick amendment: This reasoning is also why I don't mind things such as the restoration of Byzantium or Russian Empire; the player is given the agency to do it. If you formed Byzantium without fighting Turkey alone, without having to conquer it all and alienating your allies then yes, IMO it would be bad alt-history. It's not uncommon for fascist parties to harken back to medieval themes and states - Indeed, in our timeline Nazi Germany hijacked the memory and history of the Teutonic Knights (an order which vanished from relevance in the 1500s) to portray themselves as the successors, conquering out east-ward in the name of Christendom (even if the Teutonic Order was massively discriminated against and banned) as a political tool. From my little understanding of the EEE party in Greece, they use a lot of Orthodox imagery and Byzantine symbology - surely if they reconquered Istanbul and Turkey there's potential to proclaim a new Byzantium? As Italy wanted to do OTL with Rome?
 
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The market makes the determination collectively. You and I do not do it alone. You can say you are many, and there probably are.

However, if your opinion was as universal as you would like it to be, Paradox wouldn't be making any money, and we wouldn't be talking about this.
Since we do not have a more properly executed hearts of iron 4 game to get hard statistics, you do not know this. There are more plausible explanations, such as,

- people buy anyway because they love the concept of the game, even if they are disappointed, or otherwise adverse to what amounts to years of beta-testing
- paradox is doing to churn out chepaer, easier to make content bc programming people really want is more labor intensive and cost-prohibitve

I know that this is the case with me.
Again, ALL art is subjective.

Again, no, and I am really not interested in discussing it with you further. I will never--not if I live to be thousand years old-- accept your hyper relativism and you will never accept the (correct) position that there are objective and subjective standards, ie some things are a matter of subjective taste but other things are not. Before closing, consider that another problem with this positonof yours is that invariably derails any discussion on the merits of anything. If someone writes something denouncing Santa Inc or the horrible Star Wars sequels or Game of Thrones, just trot this line out then everyone's opinion is--voila!--equal to another's. NO.. Reason, evidence, knowledge of the subject matter and also taste help us discern the objective truths that are out there.
If someone writes on a message board that Taxi Driver is a superior film to Rocky, boom, "who are you to say, no thing is better than another " Commentary that discusses why pop music has degraded even further since the 80s with loss of record stores, traditional record sales and the millenial whoop, BOOM--who are you to say that Katy Perry and ArIanne Grande is good music.. It is not only not true, but it serves as a bludgeoning tool to prevent and obfuscate discussions on the merits.
 
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Gefallener_Held

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I'm more so curious on where you draw the lines for "what things are allowed in the game as mechanical abstractions" vs "which things should not be". Pretty much nobody here is arguing for swordsmen who can cut a canal between the Atlantic and India through Kongo, and pretty much everyone wants to be able to make tanks. But there's some disagreement as to how far from IRL physical possibility the game should deviate in HOI 4.

Keeping in mind that the core mechanics themselves dictate a different physical reality than we had IRL (in addition to the game setup), we can and should expect at least some significant deviations from history. But how much is too much?
That is a discussion I am willing to entertain. I already mentioned plausibility or color of plausibility. That standard keeps Sea Lion in the game although many if not most it would have been possible. Of course, some speculate if Weserubung went down differently or if the evacuation at Dunkirk had not been successful. Then of course you have for example Karl Student who insists it could have been down with a stronger emphasis on Fallschirmjeager. If actual combatants planned for various contingencies, that qualifies too.

Compare this--things that are actually talked about and discussed, and have been for 7 years, with things like Communist Japan or Monarchist USA. Such things are not seriously discussed in history forums, what have you. It seems I have to use the qualifier seriously because of the rebuttal "well, History channel had world war ii era programming discussing aliens."

There are other factors. Really all of this should be blindingly obvious but when people clutch so strenously to hyper relatvism where everything is just as valid as another, then no standards can be adhered to and there can be no discussion on the merits.
 
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Compare this--things that are actually talked about and discussed, and have been for 7 years, with things like Communist Japan or Monarchist USA. Such things are not seriously discussed in history forums, what have you. It seems I have to use the qualifier seriously because of the rebuttal "well, History channel had world war ii era programming discussing aliens."

I don't think the alien discussion is useful here. If you asked me how likely communist Japan by 1938 was in 1936, I would say not likely.

But what if we are comparing 1938 communist Japan to, say, 1942 occupation of the entire world by Germany or Italy? The mechanics of HOI 4 imply these are possible, and in fact many players can easily beat that time. I am not prepared to say Italy one-tagging the world before '42 was more likely than communist Japan. I would be surprised if you were to make such a case, too.

So when a player accepts the core mechanics of HOI 4 as presented, but rejects communist Japan, it is at least somewhat confusing, because the former similarly allows outcomes that were (by any practical standard) completely impossible in our historical timeline with the limitations presented by reality. HOI 4 mechanics lack those limitations. Not just in focus trees, but in the rules of how things like unit movement, combat, factories, peace conferences etc. work.
 
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The alt-history mechanics and focuses, much like the historical mechanics and focuses, are vehicles to tell stories. Even if it's just you playing SP and casting yourself in the role of Stalin or FDR or Patton or Rommel, it's based on creating a narrative. It's the common thread that binds HOI to CK to EU to Vicky and even Imperator. Even a "historical" game isn't historical. Hell, my MP group has tried to make the game more historical in some ways, but it forever runs up against balancing issues that arise when we try to make it more historical.

Some players like the most historical stuff, but let's be honest: HOI4 isn't a simulator. It's not intended to be a simulator. So what we have left is narrative. I don't like a lot of the alt-history focuses and paths, but it's not because I hate alt-history narratives. It's because the short time of the game ruins any sort of plausibility some of them have for me (communist US, for example). But some folks enjoy them, and it's hard to argue with the sales. And if the game had a longer time line (which doesn't make sense with the other mechanics), some of the alt-history branches would make me happier.
 
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I don't think the alien discussion is useful here. If you asked me how likely communist Japan by 1938 was in 1936, I would say not likely.
I agree. But someone actually raised that as a serious rebuttal to discussion of standards, of which I proposed that if a subject is seriously discussed in books, articles, television programming, that is a good barometer. Unfortunately I neglected to include the disclaimer that Ancient Aliens and the like does not qualify (of course, if one really thinks everything is subjective and no one's opinion is any more or less valid than other, then by that radical hyper relativism, you would have to give such things equal creedence to Anthony Beevor, Military History Visualized, or Paul Carrell. I think that alone however proves the folly of asserting that everyone is entitled to his opinion and all art is subjective.

As for Germany or Italy conquering the world by 42, that just further proves that the core mechanics of the game deserve greater focus and work, not meme "alt-history" which is actually a disservice to real alt-history, things that are interesting and worthy of serious discussion, like what if the Czechs did not back down or what if Dunkirk was not evacuated the way it was.
 
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As for Germany or Italy conquering the world by 42, that just further proves that the core mechanics of the game deserve greater focus and work
Well, you're not going to get arguments from me on that one. We might have different preferences for where the game should draw its lines or what it should do with its mechanics, but I'm on the same page wrt being frustrated with wild focus trees while the baseline mechanics and controls don't work properly. How they *should* work is another matter.

Another reasonable line of criticism is actually the 1936 position itself. However unlikely communist Japan by '38 is, it is still more likely than the starting situation in 1936, because however unlikely, it is possible to conceive a sequence of events that could result in such a civil war, even if it's more "fever dream" than something we'd expect to happen.

But even that is more likely than altering the state of the world (factory count, which resources exist/are available and where, army sizes) in literally an instant, to resolve differences between actual 1936 and HOI 4 1936, where the Axis' relative position was buffed just to make the game more interesting. I personally am willing to make this concession for gameplay, and quite a few others. But no matter what is picked, I do want the game's rules/mechanics to work consistently.
 
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Just a quick amendment: This reasoning is also why I don't mind things such as the restoration of Byzantium or Russian Empire; the player is given the agency to do it. If you formed Byzantium without fighting Turkey alone, without having to conquer it all and alienating your allies then yes, IMO it would be bad alt-history. It's not uncommon for fascist parties to harken back to medieval themes and states - Indeed, in our timeline Nazi Germany hijacked the memory and history of the Teutonic Knights (an order which vanished from relevance in the 1500s) to portray themselves as the successors, conquering out east-ward in the name of Christendom (even if the Teutonic Order was massively discriminated against and banned) as a political tool. From my little understanding of the EEE party in Greece, they use a lot of Orthodox imagery and Byzantine symbology - surely if they reconquered Istanbul and Turkey there's potential to proclaim a new Byzantium? As Italy wanted to do OTL with Rome?
I would agree with everything you wrote exept this paragraph.

The problem is NOT that Greece can rename itself to Byzantium. The problem is that "restoring" Byzantium gives you cores on all of Turkey (an afterwards also balkans etc.). This represents, that the Turks would accept the Greek rule, and e.g. be drafted into the Greek/Byzantine army. And this is beyond any resonable standard of realism (or, as another poster wrote, ABS).

Claiming an empire is easy, building on is not. And that should be represented in the game.
 
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Well, you're not going to get arguments from me on that one. We might have different preferences for where the game should draw its lines or what it should do with its mechanics, but I'm on the same page wrt being frustrated with wild focus trees while the baseline mechanics and controls don't work properly. How they *should* work is another matter.

Another reasonable line of criticism is actually the 1936 position itself. However unlikely communist Japan by '38 is, it is still more likely than the starting situation in 1936, because however unlikely, it is possible to conceive a sequence of events that could result in such a civil war, even if it's more "fever dream" than something we'd expect to happen.

But even that is more likely than altering the state of the world (factory count, which resources exist/are available and where, army sizes) in literally an instant, to resolve differences between actual 1936 and HOI 4 1936, where the Axis' relative position was buffed just to make the game more interesting. I personally am willing to make this concession for gameplay, and quite a few others. But no matter what is picked, I do want the game's rules/mechanics to work consistently.
The discrepancies between 36 in reality versus the game is interesting. In some respects Germany is stronger, but in certaint respects some things are lacking, such as certain political power decisions should already have been made like censorship of the press, anti communist raids. I would love a starting scenario that goes deeper into that sort of thing , which is why I do not like all the goofball nonsense.
The state of the Kriegsmarine is somewhat weaker than history as well, with several ships lacking. I would argue that if not 1904 level battleship, Bismarck which was laido down in 36 should be a 38 lvl (one person advocated revising ship technics so that battleships are at 34, 38, 42 levels).
Finally, we are fundamentally in agreement that there should be a line that is drawn, and that does not include Communist Japan, Monarchsit USA etc. My detractors seem to argue that there should be no lines drawn whatsoever.
 
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Some players like the most historical stuff, but let's be honest: HOI4 isn't a simulator. It's not intended to be a simulator. So what we have left is narrative. .
I do not think anyone is claiming it is a simulator or wants it to be one. We just want some basic standards applied to the parameters of the possiboe narratives.
 

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My detractors seem to argue that there should be no lines drawn whatsoever.
I wouldn't go that far, even the aliens guys would probably stop playing if the game stopped having agency entirely. At least some of them would. Probably :p.

I don't mind ahistorical focuses when selecting settings that deliberately allow for bonkers stuff. But it does make sense to constrain what happens with "historical focuses" to a higher degree than "player can convince Italy, Estonia, and Turkey to all join the Comintern or CUF by trolling as Haiti".
 
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My detractors seem to argue that there should be no lines drawn whatsoever.
Don't put words in my mouth.

I say that it's up to Paradox what they include. They are the ones taking the risks and reaping the profits or losses if they are right or wrong.

If you want to determine what is right and or wrong, and draw the lines yourself by your own subjective opinion, you're welcome to make your own mod and/or game, and be master of what is included.

Otherwise, if you like tilting at windmills, of course, have at it. No skin off my nose.
 
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Don't put words in my mouth.

I say that it's up to Paradox what they include. They are the ones taking the risks and reaping the profits or losses if they are right or wrong.

If you want to determine what is right and or wrong, and draw the lines yourself by your own subjective opinion, you're welcome to make your own mod and/or game, and be master of what is included.

Otherwise, if you like tilting at windmills, of course, have at it. No skin off my nose.
I am not alone in holding the position I do. Again, that it is up to Paradox is no more relevant to this subject han a studio's right or ability to have made this or that awful movie is germaine to the artistic or intrinsic merits of that movie or lack thereof. That Disney was able to make those awful sequels is no consequence whatsoever to the assertion that they are shit. Thankfully HOI4 is not nearly so wanting.
 
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I do not think anyone is claiming it is a simulator or wants it to be one. We just want some basic standards applied to the parameters of the possiboe narratives.

You aren't, but I see a couple of posts a month that move into the mode of thinking about the game as a simulator. Or wanting it to be one.
 
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You aren't, but I see a couple of posts a month that move into the mode of thinking about the game as a simulator. Or wanting it to be one.
A simulator would be one extreme of the spectrum. A true simulator would just be an animated representation of the events of the war with no real play involved. I do not think anyone wants that. On that spectrum, the game developers need to focus more on serious matters that are within the rubric of what I call the color or plausibility.
 
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I would agree with everything you wrote exept this paragraph.

The problem is NOT that Greece can rename itself to Byzantium. The problem is that "restoring" Byzantium gives you cores on all of Turkey (an afterwards also balkans etc.). This represents, that the Turks would accept the Greek rule, and e.g. be drafted into the Greek/Byzantine army. And this is beyond any resonable standard of realism (or, as another poster wrote, ABS).

Claiming an empire is easy, building on is not. And that should be represented in the game.
Yeah no, I'd agree there if I'm honest. I feel like there's ways to do it (decisions to core each state after 50% support would be perfect) but just the general idea of it was what I was aiming for, must've phrased it slightly iffy :)
 

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I do not think anyone wants that.

:Glances at watched threads:

There are some folks who do not realize that what they ask for would result in what you are describing. They don't really want that, but it is the end result of some lines of thought.
 
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As does every Internet pontificator. I think we've found the end of this discussion between us.

Not that it was ever a discussion. You can't have a discussion with someone who absolutely knows they are right about everything.

Have a nice day.
Again, according to someone like you, someone who thinks Paul Blart Mall Cop is a better movie than Taxi Driver has an opinion just as valid as anyone else's. No.
 
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