English Alliance with Brittany/Provence or no?

[Chief of Staff]

Playing as England, I just had Brittany and Provence both made alliance offers to me and I'm trying to decide if I should accept or not. While France is my great rival, I consider those two countries part of French natural frontier so I would have no objections to them being annexed into France eventually; Only would I move against France if it tries to conquer Low Countries, Switzerland, Savoy, invade Germany, or across the Pyrenees, as she must be confined to her natural frontier for sakes of balance of power and England's security. Now, I have no interest in acquiring lands on the continent, as I prefer to build empire through trade and colonies. I'm not even sure if it's worth to ally with states the size of Brittany (4 province) or Provence which is a OPM although she leads PU with Lorraine which is 2 provinces. So simply put, is it really worth an alliance with either of those two in light of those considerations?

I should also add that I'm already allied to two major powers, Castile and Portugal, and I also leads PU with Scotland, apparently so early than I expected. I also want to ally with Austria as another counterweight against France but I don't know if it will happen or not. Finally, any other states I should ally with? This game started in 1444 and is currently in year 1450, btw.

 

[Schmoekoeksklok]

Allying either of those two will give you a great opportunity to get into a defensive war against France so you will be able to call in all your allies (who might not all join an offensive war) and destroy France when they declare on one of them. Though if you can get both Castile and Austria as allies, they would probably join an offensive war against France as well, so then that's not particularly important.

I hope you mean you have Scotland as a vassal, rather then a PU though

 

[Chief of Staff]

Allying either of those two will give you a great opportunity to get into a defensive war against France so you will be able to call in all your allies (who might not all join an offensive war) and destroy France when they declare on one of them. Though if you can get both Castile and Austria as allies, they would probably join an offensive war against France as well, so then that's not particularly important.

I hope you mean you have Scotland as a vassal, rather then a PU though

Just to be clear, I have no interest in destroying or permanently weakening France as that would disrupt the balance of power in Europe. If Spain/Castile get too powerful and France is too weakened to resist them, Spanish/Castilian would be practically overrunning Europe and might gain more ports than I can blockade in case war break out between Spain/Castile and me eventually, and it could give them more room for larger navy to challenge the Royal Navy. So I just need to confine both of them within their proper borders, that is all.

Also, no, having Scotland as PU is actually what I hoped for. I want to form Great Britain eventually, at least through historical method.

 

[Schmoekoeksklok]

Well, if you intend to let France have all the French land I would certainly avoid allying them then

I don't suppose you're of the Stuart dynasty as well, that would be awesome

 

[Chief of Staff]

Well, if you intend to let France have all the French land I would certainly avoid allying them then

I don't suppose you're of the Stuart dynasty as well, that would be awesome

Not a chance. They are not so fan of constitutional monarchy. I'll take Hanover over them.

 

[PanH]

France is not interested in Brittany (seriously, I've rarely seen them conquer it) because it's another culture that won't be accepted. Similarly, I've seen an AI France never finish to drive the English out, because labourd and caux get culture converted before they dare to attack England again (since England can have allies, and AI France believe it will be stronger than him).

 

[pkderek]

France is not interested in Brittany (seriously, I've rarely seen them conquer it) because it's another culture that won't be accepted. Similarly, I've seen an AI France never finish to drive the English out, because labourd and caux get culture converted before they dare to attack England again (since England can have allies, and AI France believe it will be stronger than him).

I've seen France often go after Brittany but it requires them not to get gimped. And in the game someone will always get gimped. It's either Austria, France, or Castille that gets gimped. Always. Balance of power doesn't really exist in this game, it's just a matter of who gets the short end of the stick.

 

[unmerged(566081)]

Actually Provence is a 4 province minor too. Its provinces are just scattered (Besides the rich Provence, it has Bar just next to Lorraine, as well as Anjou and Maine).

 

[Beagá]

I've seen France often go after Brittany but it requires them not to get gimped. And in the game someone will always get gimped. It's either Austria, France, or Castille that gets gimped. Always. Balance of power doesn't really exist in this game, it's just a matter of who gets the short end of the stick.

Not to mention Castille is rather mediocre on land compared to France and its cute Elán bonus as second NI...

If the goal is focusing on France Burgundy is always a good ally, just sacrifice stuff. You can always get it back later.

 

[Chief of Staff]

Actually Provence is a 4 province minor too. Its provinces are just scattered (Besides the rich Provence, it has Bar just next to Lorraine, as well as Anjou and Maine).

Yeah, I just belatedly realize this during the last night's game. I've forgotten all along that Provence has provinces deep inside France.

 

[mcmanusaur]

My primary reaction to this thread is that "you know what constituted 'French' lands was still being decided at this point, right?". To me it's a sort of strange way to play England, so I'm not sure I can offer advice on the alliance offers.

 

[Chief of Staff]

My primary reaction to this thread is that "you know what constituted 'French' lands was still being decided at this point, right?". To me it's a sort of strange way to play England, so I'm not sure I can offer advice on the alliance offers.

It's also a strategic consideration. You need a strong France as part of the balance of power or at least to tie down other potential colonial rivals like Spain which can only mean she need to expand into her natural frontier which pretty much consists of all provinces that now make up France today.

Either way, what constitutes French lands is up to everyone. I chose the historical boundaries to delineate it, even though modern nation state as it is has not yet come into existence historically. Should the French cross those lines like Italy, Germany or Low Countries, it would be considered an act of war. Similarly I would go to war with Spain if it tries to expand across the Pyrenees. It would be inconceivable for English security to allow any nations to expand beyond its acceptable limits on the Continent, because a nation gaining more coastal provinces than my navy can blockade their fleets in would be a grave threat to England.

 

[mcmanusaur]

It's also a strategic consideration. You need a strong France as part of the balance of power or at least to tie down other potential colonial rivals like Spain which can only mean she need to expand into her natural frontier which pretty much consists of all provinces that now make up France today.

Either way, what constitutes French lands is up to everyone. I chose the historical boundaries to delineate it, even though modern nation state as it is has not yet come into existence historically. Should the French cross those lines like Italy, Germany or Low Countries, it would be considered an act of war. Similarly I would go to war with Spain if it tries to expand across the Pyrenees. It would be inconceivable for English security to allow any nations to expand beyond its acceptable limits on the Continent, because a nation gaining more coastal provinces than my navy can blockade their fleets in would be a grave threat to England.

Hmmm... fair enough. Personally I hate the "blob vs. blob game" that tends to develop (and especially so if one takes such an approach), so I usually approach things a bit differently, but it's an interesting modus operandi.

 

[unmerged(804580)]

I'd personally ally both (I did in my game) with the goal to diplovassalize them in the long run, but if you're not interested in their lands and you're OK to let France take on them, then... why bother? To keep a "historical" balance you'd need to swap allies quite often to keep everyone in their places and fight non-expansionist wars, to strengthen one guy here and weaken another there, but I don't think allying Brittany or Provence would do much for such a purpose.