This is something that has been mentioned countless times across the CK II fora but has still never been addressed. It should be, because it's such an easy thing to change and yet makes the game so much more interesting and realistic.
In 1066, England should have Feudal Elective succession. I've given evidence for this in several threads in the past, but at no point after the death of Harold II at Hastings were his children ever considered as possible successors. After Hastings, Edgar the Ætheling was briefly proclaimed king, based on the fact that he was the only person in the country with a claim and still alive. I've never read any mention of Harold's family (he had five sons and numerous brothers) ever claiming the throne or indeed suggesting they had any sort of claim. That's not how the monarchy worked in Anglo-Saxon England and Primogeniture simply wasn't done in the traditional sense. Yes, it could and had been applied in the past, but that applied to the Royal House of Wessex and not the Godwins, who were essentially considered usurpers and had only managed to gain the throne thru scare tactics and blackmailing the Witan. Harold was the right man for the job at the time of two massive foreign invasions, but both he and his family knew that, if his defense of the realm was successful, in all likelihood Edgar would succeed him.
Yes, we can argue about whether a long and successful Harold reign could have entrenched the Godwin monarchy (and this can still be achieved by Harold later changing succession law if he wins), but the fact is that several people saw Edgar as the rightful Saxon king and pressed his claim at various times. Incidentally, after each failed attempt he was forgiven by William and allowed to go free. How many other people did that happen to? William was notoriously cruel to those who rose up against him, hence the Harrying of the North and other brutal (but in his eyes, just) acts against the Saxon populace.
Compare Edgar's status as an international celebrity prince/adventurer with that of Harold Godwinson's children; penniless marauders who died in total obscurity in Ireland. We know absolutely nothing about any of Harold's children apart from the fact the eldest two or three raided the Cornish coast a few times, and his youngest two may have been twins and were born posthumously. One accompanied the king of Norway as a mercenary and the other sided with Robert Curthose in his rebellions against his father, was knighted (possibly) and then disappears from history.
So, it's clear that no one in Europe really thought much of the Godwin boys. Incidentally, the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle makes almost no mention of them after the failed raid on Cornwall.
What we should have is a system whereby the Godwins can vote for one another in an elective monarchy should they so wish, but Morcar and Edwin of Hwicce (the king's brothers-in-law) should have a fair crack too, as should little Edgar of course, who will often have a faction set up in his name.
The Normans should use Gavelkind in England, and Primogeniture in Normandy.
It's a matter of debate when Primogeniture should come about in England, but I would perhaps suggest with Henry III or Edward Longshanks.
So, in k_england.txt
I've also adjusted the centralization levels to better balance things somewhat. Currently what happens is that William will conquer England and immediately raise centralization to High, which then means that vassals can't do anything. This is inaccurate as William had a hard time controlling his vassals for the entirety of his reign. It would be better if England started at low centralization (so the king can still revoke titles, but his vassals can still fight) and then a successful Saxon, Norman or Norse ruler (depending on who wins) can raise centralization to Medium.
I think Edward Longshanks would be a good point to switch to High centralization and Primogeniture.
Feel free to argue any points I've raised here, but so many people complain about this issue across numerous threads that it's hard to believe it's still being ignored. All Paradox need to do is add a little event for the Nomans to change the succession type to Gavelkind if they win, whereas the Saxons and Norse would keep Elective.
In 1066, England should have Feudal Elective succession. I've given evidence for this in several threads in the past, but at no point after the death of Harold II at Hastings were his children ever considered as possible successors. After Hastings, Edgar the Ætheling was briefly proclaimed king, based on the fact that he was the only person in the country with a claim and still alive. I've never read any mention of Harold's family (he had five sons and numerous brothers) ever claiming the throne or indeed suggesting they had any sort of claim. That's not how the monarchy worked in Anglo-Saxon England and Primogeniture simply wasn't done in the traditional sense. Yes, it could and had been applied in the past, but that applied to the Royal House of Wessex and not the Godwins, who were essentially considered usurpers and had only managed to gain the throne thru scare tactics and blackmailing the Witan. Harold was the right man for the job at the time of two massive foreign invasions, but both he and his family knew that, if his defense of the realm was successful, in all likelihood Edgar would succeed him.
Yes, we can argue about whether a long and successful Harold reign could have entrenched the Godwin monarchy (and this can still be achieved by Harold later changing succession law if he wins), but the fact is that several people saw Edgar as the rightful Saxon king and pressed his claim at various times. Incidentally, after each failed attempt he was forgiven by William and allowed to go free. How many other people did that happen to? William was notoriously cruel to those who rose up against him, hence the Harrying of the North and other brutal (but in his eyes, just) acts against the Saxon populace.
Compare Edgar's status as an international celebrity prince/adventurer with that of Harold Godwinson's children; penniless marauders who died in total obscurity in Ireland. We know absolutely nothing about any of Harold's children apart from the fact the eldest two or three raided the Cornish coast a few times, and his youngest two may have been twins and were born posthumously. One accompanied the king of Norway as a mercenary and the other sided with Robert Curthose in his rebellions against his father, was knighted (possibly) and then disappears from history.
So, it's clear that no one in Europe really thought much of the Godwin boys. Incidentally, the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle makes almost no mention of them after the failed raid on Cornwall.
What we should have is a system whereby the Godwins can vote for one another in an elective monarchy should they so wish, but Morcar and Edwin of Hwicce (the king's brothers-in-law) should have a fair crack too, as should little Edgar of course, who will often have a faction set up in his name.
The Normans should use Gavelkind in England, and Primogeniture in Normandy.
It's a matter of debate when Primogeniture should come about in England, but I would perhaps suggest with Henry III or Edward Longshanks.
So, in k_england.txt
Code:
100.1.1={
pentarch = b_roma
}
100.1.1={
law = agnatic_succession
[COLOR="#FF8C00"]law = succ_feudal_elective[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#FF8C00"]law = centralization_1[/COLOR]
law = investiture_law_1
}
802.1.1={
holder=33354 # Ecgberht
}
839.2.5={
holder=33355 # Aethelwulf
}
856.1.1={
holder=33356 # Aethelbald
}
860.12.21={
holder=33357 # Aethelbert
}
865.1.1={
holder=33358 # Aethelraed
}
871.4.24={
holder=7627 # Alfred the Great
}
899.10.27={
holder=100 # Edward the Elder
}
924.8.3={
holder=33350 # Aethelstan the Glorious
}
939.10.28={
holder=102 # Edmund the Magnificent
}
946.5.27={
holder=33351 # Eadred
}
955.11.24={
holder=33352 # Eadwig
}
959.10.2={
holder=98 # Edgar the Peaceful
}
975.7.9={
holder=99 # Edward the Martyr
}
978.3.19={
holder=106 # Aethelraed the Unready
}
1013.12.25={
holder=101505 # Svend Tveskägg
}
1014.2.3={
holder=106 # Aethelraed the Unready
}
1016.4.24={
holder=108 # Edmund Ironside
}
1016.11.30={
holder=101510 # Knud the Great
}
1035.11.13={
holder=101513 # Harold Harefoot
}
1040.3.17={
holder=101511 # Harthacnut
}
1042.6.9={
holder=114 # Eadward the Confessor
}
1066.1.5={
holder=122 # Harold Godwinson
}
1066.10.14={
holder=140 # William the Conqueror
conquest_culture = norman
[COLOR="#FF8C00"]law = succ_gavelkind[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#FF8C00"]law = centralization_2[/COLOR]
}
1087.9.9={
holder = 146 #William II Rufus
}
1100.8.3={
holder = 202992 #Henry I
}
1135.12.2={
holder = 205851 #Stephen
}
1154.10.25={
holder=204500 #Henry II
conquest_culture = english
}
1189.7.6={
holder = 204510 #Richard I Lionheart
}
1199.4.6={
holder = 204514 #John
}
1216.10.28={
holder = 454522 #Henry III
}
1272.11.16={
holder = 454520 #Edward I Longshanks
[COLOR="#FF8C00"]law = succ_primogeniture[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#FF8C00"]law = centralization_3[/COLOR]
}
1307.1.2={
holder = 454510 #Edward II
}
1327.2.1={
holder=454500 #Edward III
}I've also adjusted the centralization levels to better balance things somewhat. Currently what happens is that William will conquer England and immediately raise centralization to High, which then means that vassals can't do anything. This is inaccurate as William had a hard time controlling his vassals for the entirety of his reign. It would be better if England started at low centralization (so the king can still revoke titles, but his vassals can still fight) and then a successful Saxon, Norman or Norse ruler (depending on who wins) can raise centralization to Medium.
I think Edward Longshanks would be a good point to switch to High centralization and Primogeniture.
Feel free to argue any points I've raised here, but so many people complain about this issue across numerous threads that it's hard to believe it's still being ignored. All Paradox need to do is add a little event for the Nomans to change the succession type to Gavelkind if they win, whereas the Saxons and Norse would keep Elective.
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