England in 15th/16th century - strategy

[unmerged(16488)]

art manus are also reducing stab costs by 1% each - with a limit at 50%. That's huge when you have a multicultural empire; which should not be your goal as English. Forget them now, you'll build them in 1700 when you will drown under trade money.....

once, for a try, I did free Corsica from Genoa in 1419, and did give it 100 tax value(I know, that's a lot, but that was for experiment). With 1 single refinery, but full trade focus, I had 60% of my total income coming from trade in 1500. of course, production income was a joke, but 4/5 traders everywhere beats 100 tax value. Even in 1500. That was with trade level 5, though, Genoa begins rather good there.....

For being a commercial powerhouse, you need to enter each COT by the empty slot technique, & see where you stay longer. Where you seem not to be kicked out, go more. But the real cash comes with non-European COTs. exchange maps, trade in Makassar, Guanzhou & in Japan, & you'll get a lot of easy money.

 

[unmerged(108706)]

One more thing I seem to be doing a lot... Maybe it will not be not according to your taste, but. I release continental provinces ASAP and concentrate on being a full naval power, with just enough land forces to keep any rebels from doing too much damage and at least as many ships as two following nations (most often Spain and Portugal since I take every opportunity to obliterate French fleet). It might take a while and is costly, but it feels great knowing your provinces are almost untouchable.

 

[Stoertebecker]

@J.T. I don't find it useful to invest too much in the navy. If I have enough ships to carry my troops, I'm fine. If it is just a personal feeling to have to do it, that's fine, of course.

As England, I'd try to reach the next level where ships get faster (see the great naval faq by ws2_32 for more information on that) as soon as the explorers come.

@Conquis: There are not so many good colonisable inland pronvices: so don't worry about them. The best area to colonize is the far east, with it's valuable goods, high base taxes and big native populations.

If you need Maps desparately: conquer Tago (or later: Madrid). Portugal knows Africa about 1430, Brasil by about 1440 and often, they also discover the caribean and a part of North America (in Vanilla, they do, at least).
So you really don't need conquistadors so badly. Also, you can get random ones, no matter how innovative you are. So stay innovative, if you don't plan to warmonger.

@Refineries: 1 will not make the huge difference, that 10 would make. Of course. But it is a great investment. Even a better one, than the 10th. The first refinery, at cost of around 700 D, gives a return of investment of around 10% (more, if built in a "good" province, a bit less if built somewhere else). You won't get higher return by any economic investment, except of tax collectors (and traders, if they're sticky).
10 refineries seem to be a bit too much. Of course it depends on what you're going to achieve. But with 10 refineries and a latintech country you'll reach every level of tradetech around the time, the ahead of time malus disappears even with a very big country. For someone going to stay smaller, it would be a better investment to have around 6 refineries and some other manufactories around.

@Trade:
My strategy is to get 2 merchants per CoT in the beginning and slowly growing this numbers peu à peu. Tago, Novgorod and Astrakhan are good CoT's to keep merchants in there in the beginning. The italian and german ones are very competitive (many little nations trade there, that don't have much else to do).

But trade income is not worth more than cash. In the late game, if you're very big and somehow lack in technology, that may be true. But as long as you have some manufactories to be built at reasonable costs (around 3000-5000 that is), missionaries to send, colonies to be built: cash is worth more. It's not worth to spend the same amount to send traders, as they'll return. If the merchants are somewhat "sticky" trade is a very good investment, of course.

 

[unmerged(75349)]

@Conquis: There are not so many good colonisable inland pronvices: so don't worry about them. The best area to colonize is the far east, with it's valuable goods, high base taxes and big native populations.

I have to disagree here. Colonies in the far east usually trade in whatever CoTs already exist in the area, so you get a quarter of the trade they generate, maximum. In the Americas, you can dominate a broad swath of territory, meaning you'll usually have at least one big CoT you can monopolize. You'll make at least as much from the trade as you do from the colonies' other incomes put together.

The Americas are also much easier to discover and reach from Europe, and have many more provinces total. You need a conquistador to discover the inland provinces, which is one reason why I usually go Narrowminded.

 

[unmerged(84239)]

. So stay innovative, if you don't plan to warmonger.

Hm...

Very high innovative is not good (5-6 is fine) because it takes a few DECADES to decrease it below 5 when you start needing colonists and missionaries.

- bonus colonists are always good as England
- missionaries are needed to convert the tribes in the americas, and your provinces when you change religion (as I remember, some will stay catholic)

 

[unmerged(34338)]

But trade income is not worth more than cash. In the late game, if you're very big and somehow lack in technology, that may be true. But as long as you have some manufactories to be built at reasonable costs (around 3000-5000 that is), missionaries to send, colonies to be built: cash is worth more. It's not worth to spend the same amount to send traders, as they'll return. If the merchants are somewhat "sticky" trade is a very good investment, of course.

Until trade 3 trading heavily does not pay off indeed. Though sometimes if you have a low army support trading in Cots with lots of graintrade will pay off by increasing that support.
Once you have trade 3, trade becomes one of the biggest moneymakers (unless you let your stabcost get out of control of course).
It should be possible to make as much from trade as from all other sources combined. And then you can mint a bit for cash if you need it.

 

[unmerged(34338)]

Hm...

Very high innovative is not good (5-6 is fine) because it takes a few DECADES to decrease it below 5 when you start needing colonists and missionaries.

- bonus colonists are always good as England
- missionaries are needed to convert the tribes in the americas, and your provinces when you change religion (as I remember, some will stay catholic)

England gets some good events in the 1500s if it has decent inno.
And random events usually help going back to narrowminded if need.

 

[BurningEGO]

An innovative, free trading naval England is a viable option.

Going innovative at the start might pay off because england got plenty of good events specially ones giving centralization thus increasing tech speed further.

Although i would still stick with narrowmind-ness. The reformation and all these wrong religion provinces will screw your stability costs the more so if you are innovative. And depending on how much innovative you are, you might not even be able to send missionaries.

 

[Stoertebecker]

@BurningEgo:
Yeah, the thing with the missionaries is a good point. You don't need many as England, if you don't conquer much, but you still should get a few.
Talking about colonial CoT's: it's not sure, if you'll get one. If you do, it may as well appear in a coastal province even if you don't have very much provinces colonized. In my last France game, I got a CoT in an Ex-Iroquois-province in 1505. Such things are nice. But nothing to rely on and nothing that you can't get without conquis. I did not mention it before: but conquering natives is often much more profitable than colonizing (even more, if you take in account the cheap conversions of provinces below 5000 Pop.) That's another argument pro narrowmindedness, of course, so maybe yes, this would be the better way to go.
Someone just wanting to colonize a bit, innovative would still be to be preferrred. Sending colonists is costly, the profit of colonies for a country with fewer than 90 provinces is low.
But you all are right: often it will pay-off to go narrowminded and actually, that is what I do most of the time.

Once you have trade 3, trade becomes one of the biggest moneymakers (unless you let your stabcost get out of control of course).
It should be possible to make as much from trade as from all other sources combined. And then you can mint a bit for cash if you need it.

Yes, you're right, Miozozny. I just wanted to dispute the thesis, that trade income is as valuable as cash. It isn't for most of the countries for most of the time.

 

[Xylander]

Narrowmindedness and Monopolies and why I won't win this way

Hello again,

Seems it is a bit luck dependent whether you get those conquistadors or not. I'm in 1551 and got none, being narrowminded (level 2) all the time. I have to pay the higher costs for tech and get nothing in return besides a little cheaper stability. Neither I need the extra missionaries (can't afford to use them) nor the extra colonists (no provinces to colonize). I start wondering what the use of this strategy is ...

(Just a note - I have a lvl 1 colony on Bermuda to make exploring America easier, but I only know two more provinces - that are not worth colonizing. The only exlorers I had were those two Cabots - they don't live really long.)

I get about 150 of income every year and have to spend about 50-60 on sending merchants to keep in business (trade eff between 55% and 60%). About 50-60 is spent on military upkeep so I'm left with 30-50 per year to save. Thats too few to do anything useful with it - most of the time I have to spend it on random events or rebuilding my army (around 30k men).

My budget is around 55 per month and goes to trade development (lvl 4). Stability is between 0 and 2 most of the time because of random events (though I reload when the very bad ones happen. Otherwise I had to spend my budget on stability half the time).

(Short description of what I did this game
At first I made money to promote tax collectors in all provinces. I vassalized Eire and Scotland and formed an alliance. Then I developed infra to get refineries and built two of them (next would be too expensive - more than 900). Then I switched to trade.

After the founding of a COT in Anglia (script event) and going for naval my trade eff was high enough to trade intensively what I did. Now with trade 3 (developed in 1551) I tried to monopolize some COTs. But the monopolies don't hold for long and don't seem to pay of (except in Anglia). Furthermore Spain and Mecklenburg already put an embargo on me so trade might become impossible in the future.

England is protestant, three provinces left to go. 5/7 inquisitions failed so far (with 50% chance). Now stupid Henry is monarch and I have to wait for a better ruler.

I wonder what to do now? I think I followed the suggested strategy but most of the time the game runs and I do nothing (waiting for money). A bit boring, hm? Had a little war with France that brought me military access to their country. And I have to spend a little money every year to keep relations to Scotland friendly and the alliance running.

My score is very bad - 300 points at the moment while Austria has more than 900. I won't win the game this way.

 

[Monkii-sama]

Don't go for monopolies in Europe, it's not worth it. In Kutch/Shangai and other eastern/colonial it's worth it though.

 

[pgroves]

I wonder what to do now?

Start again and play England using AGCEEP instead?

 

[Monkii-sama]

Start again and play England using AGCEEP instead?

Or, loot the crap out of indians. They usually have massive amounts of cash.

 

[Stoertebecker]

Hello again,

Seems it is a bit luck dependent whether you get those conquistadors or not. I'm in 1551 and got none, being narrowminded (level 2) all the time. I have to pay the higher costs for tech and get nothing in return besides a little cheaper stability. Neither I need the extra missionaries (can't afford to use them) nor the extra colonists (no provinces to colonize). I start wondering what the use of this strategy is ...

(Just a note - I have a lvl 1 colony on Bermuda to make exploring America easier, but I only know two more provinces - that are not worth colonizing. The only exlorers I had were those two Cabots - they don't live really long.)

I get about 150 of income every year and have to spend about 50-60 on sending merchants to keep in business (trade eff between 55% and 60%). About 50-60 is spent on military upkeep so I'm left with 30-50 per year to save. Thats too few to do anything useful with it - most of the time I have to spend it on random events or rebuilding my army (around 30k men).

My budget is around 55 per month and goes to trade development (lvl 4). Stability is between 0 and 2 most of the time because of random events (though I reload when the very bad ones happen. Otherwise I had to spend my budget on stability half the time).

(Short description of what I did this game
At first I made money to promote tax collectors in all provinces. I vassalized Eire and Scotland and formed an alliance. Then I developed infra to get refineries and built two of them (next would be too expensive - more than 900). Then I switched to trade.

After the founding of a COT in Anglia (script event) and going for naval my trade eff was high enough to trade intensively what I did. Now with trade 3 (developed in 1551) I tried to monopolize some COTs. But the monopolies don't hold for long and don't seem to pay of (except in Anglia). Furthermore Spain and Mecklenburg already put an embargo on me so trade might become impossible in the future.

England is protestant, three provinces left to go. 5/7 inquisitions failed so far (with 50% chance). Now stupid Henry is monarch and I have to wait for a better ruler.

I wonder what to do now? I think I followed the suggested strategy but most of the time the game runs and I do nothing (waiting for money). A bit boring, hm? Had a little war with France that brought me military access to their country. And I have to spend a little money every year to keep relations to Scotland friendly and the alliance running.

My score is very bad - 300 points at the moment while Austria has more than 900. I won't win the game this way.

Don't resignate and finish this fucking game! Someone who's going to learn to win, should learn to lose with his head up first.
Hey: EUII isn't (only) about being the greatest powergamer of the world. It's also about historical feeling. And it's about patience, sometimes.

By the way: Victory points are a bad indicator for anything. Austria gets points for being emperor but that's nothing. The historical England began to be a great power in the seventeenth century. So you have half a century to go to lay down a basis for your empire.

After finishing, you can rethink your strategies, maybe having a close look in the FAQ section of this forum, maybe read an AAR of one of the EUII-Badboys like ws2_32.
Have fun with the game and develop your "skills" on your own. It's better than playing a game as a marrionette of some forum "know-everythings" (like me).

 

[likk9922]

As Stoertebecker said, it's worth noting England blossomed as a world power pretty late.

If you're that anxious about conquistadors, check the file (Strategy First: EU2: DB, perhaps someone can fill in from there? ) to see thier activation dates. Also, simply sailing by provs can discover them for you, so perhaps having your ships pass by a stretch of coast and return to a port so as not to be penalized by attrition a dozen times in a row or so will allow you to discover a couple of extra provinces (this has worked for me quite often, esp. with the US East Coast).

 

[unmerged(84239)]

Hello again,

Seems it is a bit luck dependent whether you get those conquistadors or not. I'm in 1551 and got none, being narrowminded (level 2) all the time. I have to pay the higher costs for tech and get nothing in return besides a little cheaper stability. Neither I need the extra missionaries (can't afford to use them) nor the extra colonists (no provinces to colonize). I start wondering what the use of this strategy is ...

(Just a note - I have a lvl 1 colony on Bermuda to make exploring America easier, but I only know two more provinces - that are not worth colonizing. The only exlorers I had were those two Cabots - they don't live really long.)

I get about 150 of income every year and have to spend about 50-60 on sending merchants to keep in business (trade eff between 55% and 60%). About 50-60 is spent on military upkeep so I'm left with 30-50 per year to save. Thats too few to do anything useful with it - most of the time I have to spend it on random events or rebuilding my army (around 30k men).

My budget is around 55 per month and goes to trade development (lvl 4). Stability is between 0 and 2 most of the time because of random events (though I reload when the very bad ones happen. Otherwise I had to spend my budget on stability half the time).

(Short description of what I did this game
At first I made money to promote tax collectors in all provinces. I vassalized Eire and Scotland and formed an alliance. Then I developed infra to get refineries and built two of them (next would be too expensive - more than 900). Then I switched to trade.

After the founding of a COT in Anglia (script event) and going for naval my trade eff was high enough to trade intensively what I did. Now with trade 3 (developed in 1551) I tried to monopolize some COTs. But the monopolies don't hold for long and don't seem to pay of (except in Anglia). Furthermore Spain and Mecklenburg already put an embargo on me so trade might become impossible in the future.

England is protestant, three provinces left to go. 5/7 inquisitions failed so far (with 50% chance). Now stupid Henry is monarch and I have to wait for a better ruler.

I wonder what to do now? I think I followed the suggested strategy but most of the time the game runs and I do nothing (waiting for money). A bit boring, hm? Had a little war with France that brought me military access to their country. And I have to spend a little money every year to keep relations to Scotland friendly and the alliance running.

My score is very bad - 300 points at the moment while Austria has more than 900. I won't win the game this way.

Play a 'land' county.

To me, colonization is the most boring part of the game.
While in the long run, it is maybe more profitable, waging wars is mucn more fun
the german/ottoman/mongol method of empire building fits me more then the english/spanish/dutch.

 

[unmerged(108706)]

There is this neat trick you can exploit. England has no scripted explorers until 1570 , I think, so what to do? Just sit and watch as Spain conquers the world? No! One thing you could do is be nice with them, maybe enter in alliance with them and Portugal, then ask for military access. Eventually they'll start discovering the new world. By this point you need to know some provinces they don't (for this exchange discoveries with Bosnia, Lithuania, Novogrod, and such, they usually like you in the beginning). After you exchange your discoveries with them you'll know all the provinces they know, but usually you both will keep uncolonized provinces hidden from each other. When they establish a trading post in a province they'll be happy to share their knowledge of it with you. Make an army of, say 2000 men, any combination will do. Go to that province, attack natives, send your troops away and PRESTO! Natives burned down Spanish settlement.

It's not the most fair option, but I like cheating the hell out of Spain when I play England (and vice versa).

 

[unmerged(75349)]

That trick won't work. The colonial nations stop trading maps about the time they discover the Americas.

 

[unmerged(4344)]

...be nice with them, maybe enter in alliance with them and Portugal, then ask for military access.

You certainly don't need the alliance to make nice with them, although I think it might help in getting MA. In any case you can get MA without it easily enough.

Eventually they'll start discovering the new world. By this point you need to know some provinces they don't (for this exchange discoveries with Bosnia, Lithuania, Novogrod, and such, they usually like you in the beginning).

Norway has maps to the Northern Atlantic (including greenland) that nobody else knows at the start. And Ragusa has maps into the Middle East. Not to mention bribing up Oman and mapswapping, as well as points east.

After you exchange your discoveries with them you'll know all the provinces they know

Except for uncolonized provinces.

When they establish a trading post in a province they'll be happy to share their knowledge of it with you.

Not usually. So far as I can tell, colonial powers will mapswap once, and only once. So you want to wait to do it, until they've discovered a significant number of provinces unknown to you. For Portugal, I'd wait until around 1448, when Gil Eanes dies. (They don't get another explorer until 1469.) Spain normally discovers some stuff in the Caribbean pretty fast after Columbus comes. You should watch their colonists to get a grasp on where they've discovered; usually you'll want the mapswap by maybe 1495.

But so long as you get the sea zones nearby, you can watch the borders of terra incognita to see the places Spain and Portugal have colonized. Then you over ships using the Azores or Canaries, carrying tiny armies. And then you can use the tiny armies to get the maps to the places via movement.

Also note that if a province is a port province, and it has been colonized (not TP, colony), then you can just order your ships right in. And they discover it in 5 days, max. Very efficient.

Make an army of, say 2000 men, any combination will do. Go to that province, attack natives, send your troops away and PRESTO! Natives burned down Spanish settlement.

You only need a tiny army for tweaking natives. And it appears that very low aggression natives won't burn down TPs fully, and will barely damage settlements. But so long as their aggression is at least 2 or 3, this works. Cheesy, but hard to resist...

 

[unmerged(108706)]

You certainly don't need the alliance to make nice with them, although I think it might help in getting MA. In any case you can get MA without it easily enough.

But you do need to be good friends with them to increase chance of exchanging discoveries.

And Ragusa has maps into the Middle East. Not to mention bribing up Oman and mapswapping, as well as points east.

Well, AGCEEP has no Ragusa, but other nations in the region will do.

Except for uncolonized provinces.

That's what i said.

colonial powers will mapswap once, and only once.

This is not true. As long as you keep some provinces from them (not so easy, after Cabot you should have some uncolonized coastal provinces known) they'll exchange their discoveries on quite a few occasions. In my current game I managed 4 times with Portugal and 6 or 7 with Spain (using Portugal's maps to trade with Spain after I gave away all my provinces).

You only need a tiny army for tweaking natives. And it appears that very low aggression natives won't burn down TPs fully, and will barely damage settlements.

I'm not sure for aggressiveness 0 or 1, but all other I've encountered did burn TP's down every time. As for large armies, I like to have some force in the province in case they rebel against me...

when you think of it, it isn't cheesy... Imagine: 1500, Spain colonizes the world and English court gets jealous. The king sends expeditionary force who bribes the natives into attacking Spanish settlements, so a new settlement can be built. For the glory of the Empire. It really sounds like something kings would do, doesn't it?