Energy vs Ballistic

[Stormforge]

We are most likely not going to convince each other at this point. You think the PPC should be on par with the AC-10. I am happy ACs got their buff, and think the 2 Top energy weapons are just a bit too hot. I am also ok with the AC-5 and PPC being competitors.

The best part of this game, except for when it come to competitive play, is the developers leaving this so it can be adjusted. Even for private leagues if everyone gets and uses the same modded files.

 

[Iron Legionnaire]

He was debating me, and against dropping them to 10 points to be more inline with the AC-5.

Seen!

Guess it helps to pay attention to that whole "context" thing...

 

[KnightCole]

Very true, the debate about PPC vs Autocannons has always been in battletech. Its just that for the first time its skewed in the Autocannons favor.

When it seems a few minor tweaks and they both might be in a truly good spot.

 

[KnightCole]

One Note: This kind of discussion will never be resolved. The community has been arguing it in various forms for 30 years.

Well, one thing for sure, buffing the ACs is all well and good, but then going and jacking up the heat on the PPCs and energy is not.

AC2s and 5s, I wont lie, I would never really consider using them in their old form, I always thought they were trash. What? 6 and 8 tons, plus 3-4 crits and then additional ammo for 2 and 5 dmg? No thanks.....

AC10 I always felt was fine. An increase in damage? Ok, I guess ill take it, doesnt really need it, but sure.

AC20, I was impressed and a fan of AC20s as a little ass kid, but now, I view the AC20 as to big, heavy and way to much of an investment in weight and space to really be that great. Dont get me wrong, I respect it's damage and do not relish the idea of face tanking them. However, I feel you must invest so much weight and space, in addition to losing out on range, armor, and support weapons to mount it. Its to much of a 1 trick pony. You start missing shots with it and suddenly all that potential was just wasted.....and you wont have anything to use once it runs out.

PPC, it was already hotter then hell, as if it needed more heat generation....just put that 40 heat back down to TT 10(30), and 8(24) for the LL and they would be fine. I always felt the energy trade off was high heat, and thier TT heat values were already plenty hot.

I prefer energy weapons myself, being one who prefers versatility and general purpose over 1 trick ponies, energy I feel offers that, being smaller in size and weight, allowing one to you mount more of them. I feel energy can better overcome it's heat issues with proper play, where as Ballistics are shackled to their ammo load, complete with the fact the ammo can pop.....

 

[Stormforge]

What about going the other way then. This probably was discussed earlier in the thread, if so my bad. What of increasing the PPC's damage to 60, and the Large Laser's to 45, maybe 50? No change to heat.

 

[Havamal]

Well, one thing for sure, buffing the ACs is all well and good, but then going and jacking up the heat on the PPCs and energy is not.

AC2s and 5s, I wont lie, I would never really consider using them in their old form, I always thought they were trash. AC10 I always felt was fine, an increase in damage, ok, I guess ill take it.

PPC, it was already hotter then hell, as if it needed more heat generation....just remove that 40 heat back down to TT 10 and 8 and the PPC and LL would be fine. I always felt the energy trade off was high heat, and thier TT heat values were already plenty hot.

"...will never be resolved."

 

[Wissenschaft]

Furthermore, I'm not sure how HBS would implement the Clan ER PPC and Heavy PPC would be introduced into this game. In the TT they do even more heat, in this game they might be doing 50-55 heat. Thats crazy, unless double heat sinks will help handle those weapons. *shrugs

 

[Stormforge]

DHS at full 6 heat per turn. "Freezers"

 

[Wissenschaft]

What about going the other way then. This probably was discussed earlier in the thread, if so my bad. What of increasing the PPC's damage to 60, and the Large Laser's to 45, maybe 50? No change to heat.

Thats exactly what I was advocating before. More precisely:

PPC: same 20 stability damage, 55 damage, same heat
Large Laser: 45 damage, same heat
AC/5: same 10 stability damage but only 40 damage.

Oddly enough, in TT the AC/5 is equivalent to a medium laser. In this game they have taken the AC/10 role. The AC/10 is in a real odd position now where I see players just replacing it with an AC/20.

 

[KnightCole]

Furthermore, I'm not sure how HBS would implement the Clan ER PPC and Heavy PPC would be introduced into this game. In the TT they do even more heat, in this game they might be doing 50-55 heat. Thats crazy, unless double heat sinks will help handle those weapons. *shrugs

I hope they dont go with the PGI approach to Clan ER PPCs.....that 'split damage' was NOT worth it.....id MUCH rather they go with something like 12 dmg, 14 heat, or 13/13 instead of going with some goofy gimmick like 'damage arcing'....

 

[KnightCole]

DHS at full 6 heat per turn. "Freezers"

They are only 4 in the beta, vs a SHS 3. Goin the PGI '1 1/4 Heatsinks'....

 

[me987654]

The AC/5 and AC2 clearly needed a buff... I don't think most are arguing against that. (I do think the AC/5 should go down to 40 damage, but that's minor).

Right now stock matches are jacked up because mechs like the Awesome are basically broken... and that sucks. This isn't bias, it's not really even much of a valid debate.... it's math. Multiple people have posted damage per round comparisons and we also have multiple detailed analysis on damage/ton damage/heat (and a lot more than that). EVERY SINGLE ANALYSIS shows that the Large Laser and PPC are the worst major weapons in the game based on pretty much any factor you look at.

 

[Wissenschaft]

I hope they dont go with the PGI approach to Clan ER PPCs.....that 'split damage' was NOT worth it.....id MUCH rather they go with something like 12 dmg, 14 heat, or 13/13 instead of going with some goofy gimmick like 'damage arcing'....

However, It makes sense in the context of PGI's MWO. That game has always had issues with how ridiculously fast you can core enemy mechs. In fact, MWO is a clear example of why this game is restricted to lance on lance battles. MWO is company vs company and the focus fire in that game can kill even assault mechs quickly. If PGI didn't mess with the weapons then the kill times would be even lower. With such firepower, tactics in a turn base game would go out the window.

 

[Stormforge]

Oddly enough, in TT the AC/5 is equivalent to a medium laser. In this game they have take the AC-10 role. The AC/10 is in a real odd position now where I see players just replacing it with an AC/20.

I have quit thinking of the AC-10 as an AC-10. I look at it more as a primitive Gauss Rifle now, with no minimum range. Not quite a head capper though.

 

[Wissenschaft]

I have quit thinking of the AC-10 as an AC-10. I look at it more as a primitive Gauss Rifle now, with no minimum range. Not quite a heat capper though.

I doubt even the gauss rifle will be a head caper. Wouldn't be surprised if it did 60 damage from longer range. Though I'm really curious what the stats of the ER Large Laser and Gauss Rifle will be in game. Though I don't think they will be available for multiplayer which sucks.

 

[Stormforge]

I wouldn't mind see the AC-10 as a head capper either though. Especially since they toned down the head shots in beta.

As far as I know everything is above TT heat except for the AC-2, MG, and Flamer. To different degrees. Look at it more as balancing it with no Walking or Running heat. Don't mind slightly over, but 30 and 40 heat on the top energy weapons? 3 to 6 point increase at most.

And that leads us right back to the beginning, lol

 

[gavicola]

They were in a bit of a rock in a hard place i think

The ac2 and ac5 clearly needed buffs. I think they overdid the ac5, but thats cool, ill just use it more than i would have in TT. But they didnt want the AC10 and the PPC to do headcrits in TT, cuz that was never really 'fun'. So the max damage they could allow them to do is capped. And the weights of each weapon can't change or the stock designs break. And the PPC and LL need to be hotter than the ACs in order to differentiate them. So you end up in a wierd place. However, i think that the changes that wissenschaft suggested would be what i would have done to make them all equally 'interesting'. But it looks like the difference between the beta 3 numbers and the recent 'full version' streams are only in the number of shots in the flamer (thats all ive seen anyway) so doesn't look like they implemented the changes. Which honestly is fine - battletech has always been about building the best mech witht the constraints you ahve (at least for me) and so i'll just keep doing this - i'm just going to have rethink some designs. No big deal. Honestly, it'll be fun.

-G

 

[Wissenschaft]

Oh yeah, I think the game is going to be one of my all time favorites. A new classic. I'm really just being nitpicky, trying to get that perfect balanced and being paranoids about weapon balance. But hey, I've got to have some way to kill time before the game is released.

 

[KnightCole]

However, It makes sense in the context of PGI's MWO. That game has always had issues with how ridiculously fast you can core enemy mechs. In fact, MWO is a clear example of why this game is restricted to lance on lance battles. MWO is company vs company and the focus fire in that game can kill even assault mechs quickly. If PGI didn't mess with the weapons then the kill times would be even lower. With such firepower, tactics in a turn base game would go out the window.

Yeah but one other major difference, PGI has 8 guns per mech but perfect weapon convergeance basically allowing perfect placement of all that dmg.

Even 12v12 in bt wouldnt be as fast since our weapons actually have deviation. Just watch Cohhs #39 video and see that even a shadowhawk is godmode when your rng says no.

 

[Delta Assault]

Thats exactly what I was advocating before. More precisely:

PPC: same 20 stability damage, 55 damage, same heat
Large Laser: 45 damage, same heat
AC/5: same 10 stability damage but only 40 damage.

Oddly enough, in TT the AC/5 is equivalent to a medium laser. In this game they have taken the AC/10 role. The AC/10 is in a real odd position now where I see players just replacing it with an AC/20.

That’s why I’m going to mod the ac/5 back down to its true value. Right now, there’s no real reason to get an ac/10