Enemy building in your system

[kalauer]

Interesting question, I'd like to know it too.

From the last stream, I would guess yes, and it would create the "contested space" we saw. In fact, i think this may be on of th rare occasions where this rule would apply. Another one being the Enlightment.

 

[Kyle Lionheart]

It is only a bait if there is a trap. This would b Definition require the Intention to Lure enemy fleets to a Position to fight. But the Intention of this strategy, as we are discussing it, is explicitly not to fight but to rely on the assumption that the enemy will not engage because he does not want to take care of These Targets. That is the only assumption in which the attempt to build a Station in enemy territory by an unprotected construction ship has a Point: The Chance to set up infrastructure that is important for the war. But as I said, if ite really is important, then why not send in a serious escort?

You are right, it is an distraction. But not in a strategic, or military sense. But only in Terms of drawing Attention from the Player because he himself has to take care of it, while one would assume that normally, this would be done by subordinates (since the construction ship poses no Military threat). So by all means, this is what I would consider abuse of a game mechanic.

You assume there is only one possible strategy. There isn't.
Sending the unarmed constructor somewhere you really want a station, while just gambling that the enemy will leave it alone is, I agree, a very weak plan. Sending a big escort from the beginning might not be a good idea, either, especially if you do not want the enemy to commit too many forces to stop you.

Here's another idea. Send a weak constructor, but keep a bunch of military ships ready to jump at a moment's notice. If the enemy leaves the constructor alone, sweet, bonus range for your wormholes.
If they send a small force to dispose of the constructor, you jump your other ships and kill theirs. If they stop, sweet, bonus range for your wormholes.
If they keep sending small forces and even if they send a big one, however, they are throwing resources that they could have used elsewhere in a battle that you don't care too much about anyway...because in the meanwhile, your main fleet hits what is in range of your existing stations, if you are lucky they might even catch the weakened rest of the enemy fleet. You have executed a perfectly valid, and effective, distraction.

But yes, as stated before, I certainly concur that having a Network of stations is vital for wormhole-Empires. But why should it be established by These tactics? Wouldn't you as a Military planner commit considerable resources to this vital Task? Yet ingame, you send a single unarmed ship to do the Job. This is not "realistic", for all what this term is worth in our Scenario.

Again it depends on how vital it really is. If you absolutely need those additional stations to reach your goals then yes, of course you'd commit a lot of forces to ensure the constructors succeed. Otherwise...see the example above

 

[Skyhunteren]

If an enemy send his main army after the WH where your main fleet is, then you just move it to another WH station. You can jump several systems in one jump. Your enemy cannot. That is why you want as big a network as possible.

 

[kalauer]

You assume there is only one possible strategy. There isn't.
Sending the unarmed constructor somewhere you really want a station, while just gambling that the enemy will leave it alone is, I agree, a very weak plan. Sending a big escort from the beginning might not be a good idea, either, especially if you do not want the enemy to commit too many forces to stop you.

Here's another idea. Send a weak constructor, but keep a bunch of military ships ready to jump at a moment's notice. If the enemy leaves the constructor alone, sweet, bonus range for your wormholes.
If they send a small force to dispose of the constructor, you jump your other ships and kill theirs. If they stop, sweet, bonus range for your wormholes.
If they keep sending small forces and even if they send a big one, however, they are throwing resources that they could have used elsewhere in a battle that you don't care too much about anyway...because in the meanwhile, your main fleet hits what is in range of your existing stations, if you are lucky they might even catch the weakened rest of the enemy fleet. You have executed a perfectly valid, and effective, distraction.

When the enemy sends a stronger fleet, I guess he would send a fleet of which he thinks can dispose of the Support you sent to destroy the lone Corvette issued to attack your construction ship. Then you send more. What will he do? Send even more. And so on. So what have you gained? There will always be more or less a Balance in that System, but both, you and him were busy microing the reinforcements. A decent escort would be just as good as bait with the additional benefit, that you skip a huge part of the microing while still doing you distraction Thing.

You assume the Defender either sends a Minimum fleet or a huge fleet to conclude that he either loses or binds unneccessary much ships. But this will only be the case if you additionally assume that he does not want to Micro that much and just thinks "damn, I send in a big flee to get this over with.". That is precisely the element in the strategy I deem cheesy: tiring the enemy Player (not the empire!) down by Micro.

And as far as distractions go, you can do this with combat Forces too and use the Advantages of the wormhole System. Why Resort to civilian ships? That's like Poker without blinds, 100k in the pot and 1$ raises each round.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

If an enemy send his main army after the WH where your main fleet is, then you just move it to another WH station. You can jump several systems in one jump. Your enemy cannot. That is why you want as big a network as possible.

If you are weaker you will very soon run out of WH stations and you risk response forces to be trapped... you are fighting a loosing war after all at this point.

You are better of trying to raid the enemy, construction ships in enemy space will be caught out of range and destroyed.

Your network of WH stations will vanish quicker than you can build them in this case

I think you overestimating how strong WH stations are in the face of a stronger opponent, you also can't open an indefinite number of wormholes and they will take time to open. If you are caught things can get ugly fast.

A force that are much stronger can go after both your reaction fleet and send small squadrons of corvettes after your WH stations/construction ships.

In the case of the Blorgs who had a fleet capacity of over 200 could easily have sent a dozen corvette squadrons to clean out station/construction ships and hunt enemy fleets at the same time. The Blorg were actually considerable stronger than the Just League, they just did not have time to micromanage their fleets in that stream and wasted huge fleet resources in the north and sort of mismanaged them in the south for the sake of speeding things up.

 

[Kyle Lionheart]

When the enemy sends a stronger fleet, I guess he would send a fleet of which he thinks can dispose of the Support you sent to destroy the lone Corvette issued to attack your construction ship. Then you send more. What will he do? Send even more. And so on. So what have you gained? There will always be more or less a Balance in that System, but both, you and him were busy microing the reinforcements. A decent escort would be just as good as bait with the additional benefit, that you skip a huge part of the microing while still doing you distraction Thing.

If this is a distraction on my part, I don't send more. I jump away if I can, support and constructor both. Otherwise I honor the fallen for their sacrifice. Either way, let the enemy celebrate victory and waste time exploding the WH station I didn't really need anyway. If I think I can get away with it, I do this again in another area, but for now, I've split their forces and bought time for the rest of my campaign. Hopefully I've built up my forces, hit hard other targets and/or allowed my allies to assemble and arrive in the meanwhile.

You assume the Defender either sends a Minimum fleet or a huge fleet to conclude that he either loses or binds unneccessary much ships. But this will only be the case if you additionally assume that he does not want to Micro that much and just thinks "damn, I send in a big flee to get this over with.". That is precisely the element in the strategy I deem cheesy: tiring the enemy Player (not the empire!) down by Micro.

I'm happy with three outcomes: the enemy sends a lot of small fleets I can take apart one by one, the enemy sends a big fleet that wastes its time, the enemy stops sending ships and I gain a new wormhole station. Either way is fine and the plan doesn't just rely on tiring out the player...wouldn't work so well against an AI anyway.

And as far as distractions go, you can do this with combat Forces too and use the Advantages of the wormhole System. Why Resort to civilian ships? That's like Poker without blinds, 100k in the pot and 1$ raises each round.

Sure I can. But the beauty is that I don't have to do that. I might have better uses for my combat forces. Or I have a lot of surplus civilians that I can afford to lose.

If we're doing poker metaphors, this is more like semi-bluffing. Your opponent might fold, or you might draw the better hand by the end, but you still win.

 

[naisel]

When the enemy sends a stronger fleet, I guess he would send a fleet of which he thinks can dispose of the Support you sent to destroy the lone Corvette issued to attack your construction ship. Then you send more. What will he do? Send even more. And so on. So what have you gained?

The more ships the enemy sends to deal with a wormhole station in their territory, the less ship are bombarding your planets, when you are up against a superior foe gaining time is essential.

 

[Ancient Warrior]

I don't mind them having the possibility to build in my space, even without permission, but it should be considered a hostile act. Furthermore, I should be able to destroy said outposts without having to declare war.

This gets me thinking. Are you allowed to attack ships in your space without a war declaration?

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

I do not understand this whole notion of WH stations in enemy territory if you do not have space superiority to begin with. Not that you can't do it but why you would do it?!?

Either an empire just ignore you raiding them and just take your planets OR they simply deny you ever building any stations and go after your infrastructure and fleets and THEN take your planets.

In the case that someone actually do care you will never be able to build anything in their space and you will face serious destruction of your property or force a fleet engagement that you then loose.

The only way for you to establish a foothold anywhere is through winning the space battles and establish space superiority... now you can start building up a network of WH stations and use them to stage even further incursions.

If you have the bigger fleet you can be more aggressive since you have the upper hand. The enemy will have to rely on raiding your systems.

Do you really think a stronger opponent would sit and wait for you to act?
They would leave a token force (fleet) for defense and go on the offensive laying waste to you and/or hunt for your fleets.

 

[kalauer]

If this is a distraction on my part, I don't send more. I jump away if I can, support and constructor both.

I doubt you can, but let us assume you do. What did you gain? You risked a fleet of a given strength to busy an equal enemy fleet. While he may have to move by Warp, judging from the streams we saw, I highly doubt you gained so much of the initiative by this to do anything meaningful. And that is the best possible outcome, if the enemy does not make one of the mistakes you seem to hope for:

Otherwise I honor the fallen for their sacrifice. Either way, let the enemy celebrate victory and waste time exploding the WH station I didn't really need anyway. If I think I can get away with it, I do this again in another area, but for now, I've split their forces and bought time for the rest of my campaign. Hopefully I've built up my forces, hit hard other targets and/or allowed my allies to assemble and arrive in the meanwhile.

So you agree you might lose the Support fleet (contructor is irrelevant). Just to win time. If that's your Goal, you do not Need this wormhole-Station tactic. You could always Resort to normal raiding. And more, you do not have to do this behind enemy lines where you are vulnerable, but in your own space with high mobility due to a well tuned network. If you used well proportioned chunks of your navy, you can easily Keep the enemy busy with them.
But I am relieved that you seem to agree that there is no real Military value in this Action besides keeping the enemy busy and thus winning time. And while this in deed is a valid strategy if you can expect to be stronger later, it is an exception, not a Default strategy.

Additionally, for this Scenario, you seem to assume the wormhole-empire is inferior. If that is true, the enemy may very well directly attack your fleet or domestic wormhole-Network, while you are tryingto set one up in his space (which would do you no good without connecting it to your Homeland). But that is a line of Argumentation, @Jorgen_CAB already brought up: Offensive Actions when you are inferior do not seem to be rewarded in Stellaris (as much as we can tell already). And wormhole-stationbuilding in the enemy territory definitely is one of them.

On the other Hand, if the wormhole-empire is superior, the Goal to establish a Network is plausible to invade faster and more safe. But then the Defender most likely will do anything to avert this and slow down your Progress by attacking the stations and constructors in his space. So you defend them. Either way, building wormhole stations without significant escort is unplausible.

I'm happy with three outcomes: the enemy sends a lot of small fleets I can take apart one by one, the enemy sends a big fleet that wastes its time, the enemy stops sending ships and I gain a new wormhole station. Either way is fine and the plan doesn't just rely on tiring out the player...wouldn't work so well against an AI anyway.

Each of These three outcomes would be an error by the enemy: Sending too weak fleets that get picked, sending an oversized fleet, ignoring it. The right Option would be to sedn a balanced, but slightly stronger fleet that wins the battle. And in this Scenario, you gain nothing, except the unclear Advantage that you retreat per wormhole while he has to get into Position by warp. Thing is: You had this Advantage before! You always have it.

Sure I can. But the beauty is that I don't have to do that. I might have better uses for my combat forces. Or I have a lot of surplus civilians that I can afford to lose.

But if you have better use for your Forces, who is backing up the construction ship? Despite having the wormholes, you still can not be in two places at the same time. The enemy knows that, too.
And that "a lot of civilians" sounds to me like spamming them to bind the player's (not the empire's!) Attention in Micro.

If we're doing poker metaphors, this is more like semi-bluffing. Your opponent might fold, or you might draw the better hand by the end, but you still win.

If you had the better Hand, you can gain the pot immediately, which is the Station. No Need to reraise for hours with insignificant amounts (relative to the pot, which was my Point). If you say your ultimate Goal was to face the enemy fleet, I respond: You have the wormholes, you can do this anyway!

Note that I assume that the enemy will not just let you have the Station. It would be an error and I can think of no Scenario where it would not be, unless the war is already lost for either side. So if you really want that Station, and he really wants you not to have it (which he should), there will be a Major battle over it. My proposal just involves getting rid of the first stages of the heads-up and start with blinds that are a significant share of each side's stack. But I don't want to strtch the poker metaphors too much.
Start with a noteable fleet size needed to protect thy Station. So it has meaning and eliminates the potential use as Micro-spamming.

Just a reminder: If you say you do not really want the Station but to distract his fleet, I responded that you are binding the same fleet strength to do this, which also is my answer to @naisel :

The more ships the enemy sends to deal with a wormhole station in their territory, the less ship are bombarding your planets, when you are up against a superior foe gaining time is essential.

 

[Reaperdamo]

You assume there is only one possible strategy. There isn't.
Sending the unarmed constructor somewhere you really want a station, while just gambling that the enemy will leave it alone is, I agree, a very weak plan. Sending a big escort from the beginning might not be a good idea, either, especially if you do not want the enemy to commit too many forces to stop you.

Here's another idea. Send a weak constructor, but keep a bunch of military ships ready to jump at a moment's notice. If the enemy leaves the constructor alone, sweet, bonus range for your wormholes.
If they send a small force to dispose of the constructor, you jump your other ships and kill theirs. If they stop, sweet, bonus range for your wormholes.
If they keep sending small forces and even if they send a big one, however, they are throwing resources that they could have used elsewhere in a battle that you don't care too much about anyway...because in the meanwhile, your main fleet hits what is in range of your existing stations, if you are lucky they might even catch the weakened rest of the enemy fleet. You have executed a perfectly valid, and effective, distraction.



Again it depends on how vital it really is. If you absolutely need those additional stations to reach your goals then yes, of course you'd commit a lot of forces to ensure the constructors succeed. Otherwise...see the example above

The problem with all these strategies is that you are assuming the enemy is very static. They will of course try and destroy your existing infrastructure, and could do the exact same to you. So why would you expend time and resources building new ones when you could lose your most important ones in your home systems? The best way to win is to defend what you have and destroy the enemy's force. Also are you weaker or stronger than the enemy? That changes everything. Weaker you will most probably want defensive stations. If you are superior just head to the nearest system and start the conquest.

 

[Kyle Lionheart]

So you agree you might lose the Support fleet (contructor is irrelevant). Just to win time. If that's your Goal, you do not Need this wormhole-Station tactic. You could always Resort to normal raiding. And more, you do not have to do this behind enemy lines where you are vulnerable, but in your own space with high mobility due to a well tuned network. If you used well proportioned chunks of your navy, you can easily Keep the enemy busy with them.
But I am relieved that you seem to agree that there is no real Military value in this Action besides keeping the enemy busy and thus winning time. And while this in deed is a valid strategy if you can expect to be stronger later, it is an exception, not a Default strategy.

I agree, this is not likely to be a Default strategy. But it is a strategy, and it works by exploiting the opponent's reluctance to have WH Stations deep into its land. Raiding or trying it inside your own territory won't have the same psychological impact.

The problem with all these strategies is that you are assuming the enemy is very static. They will of course try and destroy your existing infrastructure, and could do the exact same to you. So why would you expend time and resources building new ones when you could lose your most important ones in your home systems? The best way to win is to defend what you have and destroy the enemy's force. Also are you weaker or stronger than the enemy? That changes everything. Weaker you will most probably want defensive stations. If you are superior just head to the nearest system and start the conquest.

The idea is to distract it from those activities, divide its fleet enough that your main force(ordinarily weaker) can then deal with the remaining aggressors, or just plainly buying time if you can get an advantage from it.
It's not guaranteed to work, of course. It might very well not. But not even have the option to try would be worse in my opinion.

 

[Reaperdamo]

I agree, this is not likely to be a Default strategy. But it is a strategy, and it works by exploiting the opponent's reluctance to have WH Stations deep into its land. Raiding or trying it inside your own territory won't have the same psychological impact.


The idea is to distract it from those activities, divide its fleet enough that your main force(ordinarily weaker) can then deal with the remaining aggressors, or just plainly buying time if you can get an advantage from it.
It's not guaranteed to work, of course. It might very well not. But not even have the option to try would be worse in my opinion.

You will have the option, but this is mainly about AI programming. And spamming wormhole stations all over the place is not wise or a good use of resources. Anyway if you are that desperate that you need to spam wormholes then you are going to get beaten anyway. It's also sounds a very gamey way to beat the ai a bit guerilla tactics. Normally you are never going to start your campaign to far away from reinforcements and your home base of operations. Do we even know the range of wormholes yet? This could not even be an issue if we know this.

 

[kalauer]

I agree, this is not likely to be a Default strategy. But it is a strategy, and it works by exploiting the opponent's reluctance to have WH Stations deep into its land. Raiding or trying it inside your own territory won't have the same psychological impact.

Psychological Impact... well. Let us call it pressure or similar: incentive to react. And I agree, it does. But, and that is my point: why do this with a lone constrcution ship and not with a significant force? This does not Change the Impact you want to create, it still Forces the enemy to react. But it makes it harder to spam it. How it is now, I could build fifteen construction ships and send them into enemy space, making the enemy react to each of them, thus imposing heavy Micro.

My proposal, to necessarily send a relevant force as escort (with the reasoning that you need control over an area to build there), alleviates that because you can not send that many misions at once. No harm done to your strategy or Intention, but the possible abuse of Micro inducing spamming is gone.

The idea is to distract it from those activities, divide its fleet enough that your main force(ordinarily weaker) can then deal with the remaining aggressors, or just plainly buying time if you can get an advantage from it.
It's not guaranteed to work, of course. It might very well not. But not even have the option to try would be worse in my opinion.

You still have the Option, see above.

 

[Kyle Lionheart]

Alternative solution that does not artificially limit player options: an "hunt rebels enemies" command you can give to fleets, so they will automatically travel within your claimed borders and engage enemies. There's your "delegate to a subordinate".

Would that be acceptable?

 

[Chrysaetos]

@kalauer The biggest issue with your proposal is a complete lack of transparency in game-mechanics, let alone how it imposes more micro for the Wormhole Empire.

 

[kalauer]

Alternative solution that does not artificially limit player options: an "hunt rebels enemies" command you can give to fleets, so they will automatically travel within your claimed borders and engage enemies. There's your "delegate to a subordinate".

Would that be acceptable?

This Suggestion was made and in Terms of Micro, I guess this would alleviate, yet not solve the Problem. But yes, I hope there will be something like that (or a patrol-command).

@kalauer The biggest issue with your proposal is a complete lack of transparency in game-mechanics, let alone how it imposes more micro for the Wormhole Empire.

I think it is quite transparent: When you start a war, you get an additional number (in the construction ship Ui or the war UI), stating how much fleet presence you Need in the enemy's territory to be allowed to build there. So you immediately know that when you want to set up your wormhole-Network, what fleet you have to send as escort. I don't see how this creates more Micro for the wormhol-empire: He does the same amount of Actions. Sending one construction ship or sending it with an escort is imo not significantly more Micro.

Or what game-mechanics were you referring to?

 

[Chrysaetos]

I think it is quite transparent: When you start a war, you get an additional number (in the construction ship Ui or the war UI), stating how much fleet presence you Need in the enemy's territory to be allowed to build there.

See, now you're advocating for extra UI implementation. This is what I mean, your suggestion is not transparent. It's not immediately apparent that you need an escort so you'll need further UI work and even then, it won't necessarily be readily apparent because the player will be used to just sending a sole construction ship to build anything anywhere (Frontier Outposts, WH Stations, Mining Stations).

So you immediately know that when you want to set up your wormhole-Network, what fleet you have to send as escort. I don't see how this creates more Micro for the wormhol-empire: He does the same amount of Actions. Sending one construction ship or sending it with an escort is imo not significantly more Micro.

He has to split up parts of his fleet, combine with the Construction ship (let's be honest, they'll never be put together otherwise) and then use them as a construction ship. This is about the same amount of micro you're opposing from the other end. The defender against Station spam has to split up parts of his fleet, send it over to hunt down the construction ship.

So what is it, is it too much micro or is it not?

 

[kalauer]

See, now you're advocating for extra UI implementation. This is what I mean, your suggestion is not transparent. It's not immediately apparent that you need an escort so you'll need further UI work and even then, it won't necessarily be readily apparent because the player will be used to just sending a sole construction ship to build anything anywhere (Frontier Outposts, WH Stations, Mining Stations).

So ... the UI is already so crowded that it is impossible to implement this feature, is that your point? That's what the Ui is there for: to give you information. Claiming now that this particular Piece of Information would be too much is arbitrary and, funny enough, a very transparent attempt.

And what is, by your perception, immediately apparent? That you have to send a construction ship to build anything (there are games that handle it differently)? That borders can not be crossed during peace (rephrsing an Argument heard earlier, although I do not agree: "what stops the ship?")? That you need a better FTl-tech to reach certain Systems (range is not displayed)? A lot of things are not immediately apparent. But yes, this might be beneficial. But I do not see why this could not be achieved for this Feature.

Another Point is that this is a game where one needs to learn it's rules. You do not start it and know it all. That's why there is a tutorial. And by all means, it is a Grand strategy game (I see you played CK2 and EU4 and Vic2(!)), so how Comes you Claim getting used to the finesses and rules of it is supposed to be a walk in the park?

Regarding your specific example, this always relates to your own territory! You can not build These stations (except outposts) outside your territory, or even the enemy's at peace. So why should you assume you are allowed to build it in the enemy's territory at war? I really can't see the imperative there.

He has to split up parts of his fleet, combine with the Construction ship (let's be honest, they'll never be put together otherwise) and then use them as a construction ship. This is about the same amount of micro you're opposing from the other end. The defender against Station spam has to split up parts of his fleet, send it over to hunt down the construction ship.

So what is it, is it too much micro or is it not?

The difference being that:

- the Initiator of the Action has this (limited) amount of Micro to do. I still Claim this is not significant more Micro than taking care of the construction ship by itself. And this is his decision. But he is no longer able to just send construction ships with one or two clicks and by this force the enemy to do considerabe more Micro (split a small fleet, send it there, Keep an eye on the outcome)
- the amount of These Actions is limited. In the current state, the Initiator could send multiple (in extremum dozens) of construction ships to make the enemy react. With the necessarity of a decent escort, he may be able to send three. Much less Micro! For both. And a possible abuse made impossible.

 

[Number 7]

the blorg Hug Boxes weren't very expensive to set up in the grand scheme of things. Compared to the building and regular maintenance costs of the entire blorg wa- i mean, friendship fleet.

due to them being able to have FTL inhibitors that force the ships warping in to land near them, placing one at minimum in every border system would immediately stop any and all penetration from construct ships that want to go build wormhole stations.

Once you have a small one in virtually every system, the enemy construct ships will be hopeless unless the enemy sends their navy in first to smash everything.

i imagine Wiz simply didn't get around to building the necessary defensive infrastructure because A) playing on high speed means he was already struggling to keep up with internal things such as tile improvements, let alone other considerations. B) he favoured a larger overall fleet with his resources so he could split it and have half go to the west and half to the south and have strong chances of victory instead of two smaller overall fleets that would have lesser chances except on the defensive

but even wormhole stations that are ignored dont seem that bad. hyperlane and warp drive races can already get around just fine in your territory, and if a wormhole nation wants to try to drive too deep into your nation they risk being cut off if wormhole stations fall and they don't have construction ships on hand (who would definitely need to be able to build in enemy territory to counteract this. especially since the assault fleet might not be with the navy at that time who was securing the area around a planet in advance of ground assault armies)